Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

prettybird

Francine is the gift that keeps on giving

Could that, by any chance, be a mild ad hominem - rather than making your case?

Scotland rarely votes for a Conservative majority. We often get a Conservative UK government. Most Scots (not all, mind you) do not support Conservative policies.

I voted to stay in the UK but I also voted Remain. I would now support IndyRef 2 to stay in the EU. I like freedom of movement. Scotland needs inward immigration. We a shrinking 'native' population. It is the people from the Accession countries who are picking the berries in the fields around my house.

I have nothing in common with the people who have championed Brexit - Farage, Johnson, Gove, Reese-Mogg. If they think it is good, it probably isn't for me.

I have hugely benefitted from EU regs. A serious one would be holiday accrual on my 12 month mat leave. A silly one would roaming charges.

I would rather align with the EU than the US. My politics are social democrat, not libertarian.

I think it's more to do with the massive 800 year old chip on Scotland's shoulder.

In many ways the union between Scotland and England can be compared to a marriage. Using that analogy, you are the husband ramming it down his wife's throat how he is the higher earner, how she's only had the nice things she's had at his good grace, how she couldn't possibly cope without him. He nitpicks at certain perceived benefits she's had because of his salary but conveniently dismisses the abuses he's subjected her to, the contributions she's made to the marriage, that much of his own success was only possible because of her support, the fact that no one will ever know what sort of career she might have built if she had been given the freedom to pursue her own dreams.

Then he hears that she might be planning to leave him. He continues to belittle her and sap her self-esteem, again telling her ad nauseum how good he's been to her and how there's no way she'll ever cope on her own. He thinks he has a right to demand she explains to him why she is leaving and how she will cope, where will she live, how will she pay her bills? He's so arrogant it's beyond his comprehension that she doesn't need to justify herself to him or answer his questions.

I'm not a nationalist for the record and voted against indepedence at the last referendum. But I've come across your attitude before and as a proud Scot it really grips my shit. So speaking on behalf of our analogous wife, let me be very clear. she doesn't need to justify anything to you and if she decides to walk out that door you'd be well advised to keep your mouth shut and stay well out her way.

Welcome to the dark side, stargirl!

What chip would that be, TheRedDoor?

TooTrueToBeGood
Awa an tak a fuck tae yersel hen.

Wait. Would this be the superior intellect, analysis, coherence, IQ, persuasiveness, education and erudition that the Remain lobby have in such abundance?

TooTrueToBeGood great analogy !

@HirplesWithHaggis

I actually said to DH, "The only thing that will make me regret this is if Farage gets his way." after IndyRef. 😬🤪

Both futures are uncertain now. There is no longer a stable path. I still have questions on currency, a second parliamentary chamber, a Supreme Court, etc, etc.

I have used that analogy before, TooTrue. It also ties in with lovebombing techniques used by abusive spouses - we look like we're leaving and it's all, "We love you. Don't leave us, lead us. We'll change, we'll listen to you and respect you." The very next morning after we say, "OK, it has been along time together, I'll give us another go" and BOOM it's EVEL, and then "We're cutting you off from the neighbours" and finally "You'll have had your Parliament". Fuck that.

Francine, consider the parallel of the Irish Republic. It’s economy is the fastest growing in Europe, incomes per head are higher than in the UK and growing, inequality is relatively low. Rural cities like Cork provide highly paid jobs in tech firms (Apple, Dell) and pharmaceuticals. This is the result of an economic policy focused on Ireland and rural development, with the selling point of access to an EU market.

Do you honestly think Ireland would be better off still ruled from Westminster? Westminster governs for the interests of London (or it did pre-Brexit) with neglect for the English regions, let alone Scotland.

You'll've had your Parliament! 🤣🤣🤣

Bloody brilliant!

Questions are good, stargirl, and even better is that once we're indy we get to answer them ourselves.

Keeptrudging
Scotland is not in a 'union of equals' as part of the UK. Scotland is overwhelmingly ignored, milked for revenue and does not (ever) get the government it voted for.

Do you think as nation smaller than Yorkshire (in GDP and population), you would be "equal" with Germany, France, Spain, Italy?

Do you think that in the EU bureaucracy, you would get an executive branch of government you voted for? Bear in mind that the President of the European Commission (currently the bibulous Jean Claude Junker) is not elected by any ordinary citizen voters. We (the United Kingdom) opposed his appointment. Look how much influence we had - even as one of only two major funders and biggest economies.

What makes you think you would be "equal" to whatever Germany wants / decides?

Francine. Look at Ireland. Brexit is being dictated not by the German car industry but by the Irish border. Britain treats it with disdain but the EU are right behind their members, no matter how small.

I voted to remain and was a no in the Indyref. I'm seriously considering, if there was ever to be another indyref, voting for independence.

HirplesWithHaggis
we also crash out of Open Skies agreements - we will have no right to overfly or land in other countries
We had perfectly reasonable and workable agreements to allow for over flying and landing in other countries long before the EU and will have so again long after. Don't be sensationalist. This non-story didn't even get much credence from Project Fear even during the EU Referendum (which you lost btw). It reminds me of when leading up to Y2K we were told "planes could literally fall from the sky".

Yeah right.

No Francine - I'd already made the point that you had been answered multiple times, with examples. And thanked you for giving us the opportunity to continue to make the point.

So therefore, you are the gift that keeps on giving.

That's not "ad hominem". That's a fact.

You're actually doing those that want independence a favour - giving us the opportunity, multiple times and from multiple different angles, to point out the differences between the different unions. For which I thank you - especially on behalf of the Lurkers who may not have known about them.

I think Scotland would also attract far higher subsidies from the EU as a small nation, tbh. Our health inequality is usually bottom in the entire EU with Glasgow & Dundee fighting for worst city in terms of health outcomes.

Working class men in Glasgow have a lower life expectancy (62 years) than the U.K. retiral age (68 years for me).

changehere

Francine, consider the parallel of the Irish Republic. It’s economy is the fastest growing in Europe, incomes per head are higher than in the UK and growing, inequality is relatively low. Rural cities like Cork provide highly paid jobs in tech firms (Apple, Dell) and pharmaceuticals. This is the result of an economic policy focused on Ireland and rural development, with the selling point of access to an EU market

I think that is probably the most cogent and clear answer to the question I posed. If Scotland can become the "Tartan Tiger" economy within the EU - all power to you.

Wait. Would this be the superior intellect, analysis, coherence, IQ, persuasiveness, education and erudition that the Remain lobby have in such abundance?

No, it's just how I chose at that moment to react to your pompous arrogance. I may choose to debate, I may choose to tell you to fuck off. My choice and despite your sense of entitlement I'm under no obligation to justify myself to you ya goady supercilious cunt.

Francine - thank you.

Many, many EU countries are smaller than Scotland

europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/figures/living_en

prettybird
You're actually doing those that want independence a favour
As I have already said, when it comes to independence for Scotland- we're on the same side. Especially if this means we won't have to see or hear as much of Nicola Sturgeon and your MPs can vacate their over-represented seats in Westminster.

“It reminds me of when leading up to Y2K we were told "planes could literally fall from the sky".

Yeah right.”

Y2K went fairly smoothly because a lot of people spent years and an awful lot of money making sure it did. They did not just go, oh it’ll be fine.

Brexit only has a cabinet with a revolving door...

Of course UK will have flight agreements. Eventually. Just not the day we crash out of the EU, unless we have made agreements in advance. And we've just recently begun recruiting for appropriate negotiators. Who don't even need to have any experience in the aviation industry...