Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

TooTrueToBeGood

So speaking on behalf of our analogous wife, let me be very clear. she doesn't need to justify anything to you and if she decides to walk out that door you'd be well advised to keep your mouth shut and stay well out her way

Thank you for your kind suggestion for me to keep my my mouth shut. After careful consideration and thoughtful analysis I must respectfully inform you that I will decline on this occasion.

SciFiFan welcome to you too. The more the merrier in the indy family. :)

@FrancinePefko42

So, how about the Freedom of Movement? Critical to Scotland's economic power given our birth rate. We need lots of inward migration. We need lots of people to do jobs that Scots rarely chose such as berry picking and jobs in the care sector. That's the main benefit of EU membership to Scotland in economic terms that Brexit threatens.

stargirl1701
I think Scotland would also attract far higher subsidies from the EU
From whom? Without UK, the only really significant net cumulative contributor is Germany, Do you think Berlin will pay you even more subsidies than you get from London? Of course a PP cited an unreferenced academic source suggesting that Scotland actually gives to England. So you don't really need any "subsidies" anyway.

We had perfectly reasonable and workable agreements to allow for over flying and landing in other countries long before the EU and will have so again long after.

We did and we wound up the bodies certifying them when we joined the EU organisation providing the certification. We could replicate them again, but it's not something that will be done by wishful thinking - it will cost time and money and even if someone was working on this right now, it would not be ready for 30th March.
I was another one who spent a considerable amount of time working on IT projects leading up to Y2K. Any one who dismisses it, as yourself Francine and Boris Johnson, just do not know how ignorant you are on the matter, and how foolish you make yourself look with that statement.

stargirl170
So, how about the Freedom of Movement? Critical to Scotland's economic power given our birth rate. We need lots of inward migration

Yes you do. But even with FOM, approximately 94% of EU migrants to the UK prefer to settle and work in England rather than Scotland. Why do think this might be?

I was another one who spent a considerable amount of time working on IT projects leading up to Y2K

So was I Peregrina. Any IT Director or Chief Technology Officer with integrity will admit that the threat of the "Millennium Bug" was deliberately exaggerated mainly by ERP vendors (see article below) who made billions at taxpayer's expense.
www.scmfocus.com/scmhistory/2013/09/y2k-issue-deliberately-exaggerated-erp-vendors/

94% of EU migrants might prefer England now, and indeed historically. Kinda think that might change after March.

A wealthy, exciting, brand new country, where even immigrants will help decide the future. Why wouldn't they want to live here? Not to mention a probable influx of economic refugees from.the south.

Why are you bothered though OP? You have said you would be glad if Scotland left the union so why are you concerning yourself with why?

HirplesWithHaggis
A wealthy, exciting, brand new country, where even immigrants will help decide the future. Why wouldn't they want to live here? Not to mention a probable influx of economic refugees from.the south.

Is that why throughout oue time in the EU migrants from all over the world have got to Calais to try and get to us? If you look at the anti personnel security measures on the Channel Tunnel entrance - they have to be much more robust on the Fench side - reflecting the flow of people

@FrancinePefko42

The weather 😄

Um, I thought the problem with "migrants" at Calais is that they're not EU citizens. Because EU citizens can just, you know, get on a plane, or a boat, or a train.

And yes, the weather. And the myth that we are too wee, and too poor.

Ah, apologies, I.misread your post.

StoorieHoose

Why are you bothered though OP? You have said you would be glad if Scotland left the union so why are you concerning yourself with why?

I would say I was curious about the logic that cries "Freedom!!!" and then seemingly cries "Servitude!!!" in the next breath (when it comes to agricultural policy, fishing policy, regulations and immigration etc etc).

Have you seen lots of cries of ‘freedom’ on MN like?

Because people shouting Freedom! Tend to be mumsnet on a Saturday night discussing politics right enough...

HirplesWithHaggis

Um, I thought the problem with "migrants" at Calais is that they're not EU citizens. Because EU citizens can just, you know, get on a plane, or a boat, or a train.

It is the lack of border controls across most of the EU which causes the issue. Viktor Orban and others are harnessing frustration with this to fuel populist movements

StoorieHoose

Have you seen lots of cries of ‘freedom’ on MN like?
I was speaking metaphorically (and also alluding to the final line of Mel Gibson's Braveheart)

Op, you've twice said I haven't cited my claim that Scotland are a net contributor to the UK.
This is because you didn't cite your claim that the English taxpayers subsidise free prescriptions and pay more.

If you want evidence, have a look at GERS figures for the last 32 years- Scotland has contributed in the majority of years more than the UK average in tax per head of population, so if we have paid more tax than the average UK citizen, how can we not be a net contributor?

See, Braveheart is terribly retro. Outlander is the way to go these days. There's a reason Cameron didn't want it shown on terrestrial telly in the run up to the last indyref.

(I have never watched it myself, but apparently it's really boosting our tourism industry. Filmed some of it near me a few months ago.)

I guess it comes down to your point of view. I don't see either the UK or the EU as servitude. I see both as having benefits and compromises.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch
How can we not be a net contributor?

It might be because you are looking at the "average in tax per head of population". Because your population is relatively small - the total amount will still be much less overall.

Well in the case of my organisation we did review legacy code and adapted it where feasible. In other cases, with a mish mash of systems developed over a number of years e.g. a finance system written with bits of COBOL, Fortran, Delphi, Excel and God knows what else as bits and pieces were tagged on, was rapidly becoming unfit for purpose but we would have soldiered on. It gave us the kick up the backside we needed to review what we needed for the future and integrate a variety of functions e.g. the Finance system had stock control added, instead of some other home made system, written by someone who had now moved on and no one much knew which language it was written in.

So I can accept that people did make a lot of money out of it, but they didn't do nothing. We are doing nothing - we have only just it seems begun to list the areas which will need attention, never mind review them to see if they will still work come Brexit.

To go back to the original question - why leave one union to join another - if you find the second union offers you more than the first, why not?

It might be because you are looking at the "average in tax per head of population". Because your population is relatively small - the total amount will still be much less overall

Erm, these things are always done per head or it is meaningless

Outlander is the way to go these days. There's a reason Cameron didn't want it shown on terrestrial telly in the run up to the last indyref

Did Cameron stop it being shown, @HirplesWithHaggis ?