If there was another Brexit referendum tomorrow ...................

[TistyTosty]

.......would you vote the same as you did originally?

Even the hardest of negotiators need something to negotiate with. Can you give specific examples of how and when and where we have “rolled over” too quickly? I mean, we managed to negotiate a whole bunch of opt outs from the EU meaning we didn’t join the euro or schengen, we had a substantial rebate and didn’t participate in certain justice and home affairs policies. We already had the best deal out of any country in the EU so you’ll have to explain about this rolling over business.

If that’s too difficult, perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what our best negotiating tactics should be, given that the entire civil service seems to have missed them.

So we struggle to grow. It would be better for us to trade with faster growing economies. If we are out of the EU and on WTO rules we will have to do that. It will be the kick up the backside that we - and most other export businesses - need. So in the medium term the country will be better off.

You already can trade with anyone you like (barring any economic sanctions).

Are you seriously falling back on the “once we’re up shit creek without a paddle we will have to build a paddle with some twigs, spit and pubic hairs because we will have no other option if we want to get out alive” argument?

Because that doesn’t strike me as a very sensible way to run a country.

I think I would vote differently but i’m not saying what I voted originally.

Yes that sort of argument has been used to me before about opportunities in bad situations and I feel like saying but the opportunities were there all along!

It’s so depressing. Even if there would be an advantage to certain small businesses from leaving the EU (although chicaxe hasn’t actually explained what these are) is the wider cost to the economy not relevant here?

I’ve noticed this style of argument a lot recently. “My [small business] will benefit from Brexit in [this unexplained way] so this is all scaremongering and we will all be fine.”

Really?!

So if someone you care about loses their job because of Brexit, or you get cancer and can’t get the treatment you need because there’s a Brexit related drug shortage or staffing crisis, that’s all fine?

Are you seriously falling back on the “once we’re up shit creek without a paddle we will have to build a paddle with some twigs, spit and pubic hairs because we will have no other option if we want to get out alive” argument?

I wouldn't put it like that, but it's sometimes better to be on a smaller more flexible vessel, like a kayak, than a great big ocean liner full of squabbling passengers.

Can we have some sensible arguments rather than meaningless metaphors please?

Ohh I like a metaphor

You're the one who brought pubic hair paddles into the conversation.

I suggest we all get back to work.

OK, point taken. But I’m not the one suggesting that it is a good idea to paddle up shit creek get ourselves into a difficult situation, chuck the paddle into the nearest waterfall trigger Article 50 with no plan and then waste 4 months faffing about having a referendum, send a rude Whatsapp message to the only person we know nearby who has a rescue boat and some sturdy rope piss off the people we’re supposed to be negotiating with, and then build a paddle and attempt to row back to civilisation spend the next few decades getting ourselves out of the godawful mess we created for no good reason.

If you want to stick with the metaphors, if there’s a storm in the Atlantic at night, I’d rather be on the cruise ship than in the canoe. Less chance of going adrift in the open water and having to eat the other person in the canoe to survive.

I run a small export business. At the moment it is much easier for us to sell to EU countries, however the EU countries we deal with are not doing very well. Their growth is sluggish. So we struggle to grow. It would be better for us to trade with faster growing economies. If we are out of the EU and on WTO rules we will have to do that. It will be the kick up the backside that we - and most other export businesses - need. So in the medium term the country will be better off.

I’ve been asking on the Brexit Arms threads (ie the Leaver threads, not the Remain Westministenders), for someone to give me some positives results of Brexit. Flat refusals because, apparently, it’s all been said before so no need to repeat.

Finally someone has posted their idea of a positive. Unfuckingbelievably pointless. Why not give yourself a kick up the arse and trade with the world through EU (ie our) trade deals or, where none exists, through WTO as an EU member state? Fuck me

Seems the argument is that, as Brexit will make trading with the EU more difficult, the company will have to work harder to develop non-EU business (which they could have done anyway). Just the kick up the arse they needed apparently. But fuck the rest of us.

I think a lot of people have this romantic idea that the UK is a small country which punches above its weight and has a history of getting out of difficult situations without help from anyone else and coming up smelling of roses. The leave vote was strongest among the baby boomer generation, who grew up watching a steady stream of “plucky Brit” propaganda in the post war years. Popular culture was absolutely full of it, about how we and we alone stood up to “Jerry”. (Actually we did it with a lot of help from the Americans and millions of people from former British colonies, and the main reason we weren’t occupied like those “cheese eating surrender monkeys” is because we are an island and didn’t share a long and difficult to defend land border with Nazi Germany. But the films tend to gloss over that.)

I think that’s why a lot of older people still believe in British exceptionalism, that we’re better than our European neighbours and don’t need them to flourish in the modern world. And, fundamentally, a lot of them still see Germans as the enemy. It’s a sort of nostalgic harking back to a golden past that never really existed other than in their own minds.

The younger generation didn’t live through that post war period so I think they have a much more modern, balanced and realistic idea of Britain’s place in the world.

I'd vote remain again.

But most leave voters would probably vote the same way. The hope would be enough changed their minds or the demographics (young people coming of age vs old people dying) would swing it.

We're in a hybrid war with Russia in which they're trying to stir up divisions and weaken us through the ensuing chaos. Brexiteers have been manipulated by Russian-sponsored rhetoric from vote leave etc but they're too pig headed to admit it.

I agree Love in Tokyo.

I agree in theory cholka but calling people pig-headed seldom get them round to your way of thinking.

It's difficult to admit you made a bad decision, even if the decision was good at the time you made it.

Voted leave, wouldn't change

calling people pig-headed seldom get them round to your way of thinking.

Let's be honest here. No bugger is going to change their minds now two years down the line.

If anybody was actually open to an alternative point of view, it would have happened within the first few months.

We're just all venting on here with a bit of vigorous keyboard-mashing - and I think we'd be better off hurling angry pig-headed insults at each other here so we can attempt to at least pretend to be nice to other human beings in the real world

I voted remain and would again in a heartbeat.

Yes, the EU has its flaws - but what political system doesn't? And surely it is better to be inside it and be able to achieve reform than outside it and have no say.

I genuinely think countries are stronger together and anything we can have in place to ensure cooperation is a good thing. This is also why I am against devolution within the UK as well. We should work together, not against each other.

we managed to negotiate a whole bunch of opt outs from the EU meaning we didn’t join the euro or schengen, we had a substantial rebate ...

Indeed, but those individuals who kept us out of the Euro and out of Schengen are no longer available. The PM who managed to get a good rebate is no longer with us either. That calibre of person with nerve is not present in the current govt, though I think TM is amazing wrt her workload and the diabetes T1.

Some years back I worked for a multi-millionaire businessman and with him attended some heavyweight crunch meetings in NYC and Zurich. The mindset of a business person is different to that of a politician, esp. the career type that flocks to the EU. The businessman just wants to get a deal done where no one loses face. The point is - virtually everything is negotiable if both parties actually want an exit deal. But of course it’s not just another party, it’s 27 others against GB.

LoveinTokyo if you are going to reference WW2 then at least be accurate. The Russians were our allies and millions perished in the siege of Leningrad. America entered the war after Pearl Harbour was bombed by the Japanese.

Britt, political negotiations are quite different to business negotiations.

Business negotiations always come down to money in the end. Political negotiations are a very different beast.

How do you suggest we resolve the Northern Ireland issue?

I voted to leave and I would do so again. I know lots of people who voted to leave and still want to leave. Being part of EU means we can't make trade deals of our own and have to rely on EU to do it on our behalf. They are very slow sometimes taking 15 years to do one deal because of having to get agreement with 28 countries. If we are out we can do our own trade deals which might take 2 years to make. We should still trade with EU on WTO terms which is how EU including UK trade with many other countries. I think trade is less of an issue than NI as we only export 19% of our goods to EU and rest is traded on WTO terms anyway.