Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:40

wtf are the LDems and SNP up to Angry ?

Have they given up being Opposition Parties ? Confused
Or are they totally disorganised ?

Were the abstaining Labour MPs abstaining deliberately, because Corbyn doesnt really want to defeat May ?

If all of them had turned up, at least some of those amendments could have been defeated, which would be Parliament telling May to stop rolling over for the ERG

mybrainhurtsalot · 16/07/2018 23:40

I think Jo Swindon, Laura Pidock and Cat Smith are all either in the late stages of pregnancy or have recently given birth.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/07/2018 23:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

IrenetheQuaint · 16/07/2018 23:42

Dominic Raab goes to Brussels on Thursday to negotiate with Barnier, yes? What is he going to say??

An extension to the Article 50 deadline seems increasingly likely, but as things stand it will just prolong the misery.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:42

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
So this ERG VAT amendment Government just accepted, won by 3 votes.

- No Common VAT area
- No VAT alignment means potentially no Irish backstop
- so endangers Withdrawal Agreement, and thus transition
- Upfront, large VAT liabilities unless every EU state brings deferment scheme
“VAT now central to whether theres a super hard Brexit” says one industry expert. And Brussels will now be getting v mixed messages re Chequers, says connected Charles Grant:

Charles Grant @CER_Grant
It is not clear to me whether the ERG amendments really wreck the May plan, but the gap in that plan was VAT. Unless we stay in EU's VAT area, we cannot avoid a hard border. Today's events will certainly weaken the credibility that May had gained with the 27 from Chequers*@CER*_EU

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Chris Giles was all over this.. how many MPs understood the VAT amendment they just voted through?

twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1001708286209593345

Entirely plausible that on basis of this legislation, both on VAT, NI and the already unlikely “let us stay in customs union where we need it but let us outcompete you on tariffs elsewhere” FCA, Brussels now decides to let us know what it really thinks of Chequers/ White Paper.

So Tory Rebels, do you fear a Corbyn Government more than a Super Hard Armageddon Brexit you know we are not ready for?
This question may focus some minds. Even Tory ones.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:44

Jo Swinson was photographed at the weekend at the Anti Trump March with baby strapped to her.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:45

I've been posting for a while now that the choice is likely to be very stark:
no deal vs Norway+ (SM+CU)

Unfortunately, no deal is the default, unless something specifically happens to stop it
No deal will happen if May & the govt can't decide what they want and keep flapping around in chaos.

mybrainhurtsalot · 16/07/2018 23:46

Ah, hadn’t seen that.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:47

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Here's tomorrow night's stinker for the Govt;

With things so close tonight... and so much at stake...

What's the point in being bought off anymore?

If you are a remain minister, why wouldn't you resign if the numbers were that close?

We are in full on melt down.

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:48

In the last stages of the Major govt, MPs were even brought in on stretchers.
I remember one Tory MP brought in who was being treated for cancer and was pretty ill

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 23:50

I'm actually in shock at what they've just done.

This is insane. Absolutely insane.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 23:51

Stephen Pollard @stephenpollard
Yes, obviously bitter divide in the Tory party is over shape - and reality - of Brexit. But there's another fundamental issue which is simply being ignored, and is vital to any hope of keeping Corbyn and the hard left out of office: Mrs May is an utterly hopeless PM and leader
Until that reality is faced up to and dealt with, the Tories are condemned to disaster, whether imminent or protracted. And for the country's sake they have to confront this truth and act, or they will be responsible for Corbyn taking office

Pete North @PeteNorth303
That ship has already sailed. A no deal Brexit will bury the Tories and the public won't tolerate a hard right government run by Moggists - nor will the membership put up with a soggy bunch of pro-EU centrists. The Tory party has had it.

If you are a Tory Rebel and you understand this calculation. Why would you vote to keep the government going now? Better to fold it, and let Corbyn take the shit. That way you MIGHT save the party in the long run.

Nothing left to fight for but ensuring we don't hard brexit now.

Surely?

OP posts:
20nil · 16/07/2018 23:51

Just when you thought things couldn’t get any worse ...

Or, it might be that May knows the EU will never accept her daft white paper, is stringing the ERG along for now because it really doesn’t matter and is going to come back from negotiations with a much softer Brexit plan, one that’s acceptable to the EU. Then the parliamentary showdown really happens and the ERG cannot win that one. There is no parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit and they know it.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:52

That amendment is really important to avoid a disastrously hard Brexit
I hope all LDems & SNP will have 3-line whip
Labour too - frictionless trade for jobs is their clear policy
(Corbyn is pandering to the xenophobic vote, so doesn't agree to the FOM etc to make the policy possible)

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:56

The Chequers plan was barely up to the standard of a green paper, not a white paper.
It goes against the EU's red lines of not damaging the SIngle Market or the GFA

However, the votes just now are bad news because they show 2 things:

  • May is still rolling over for the ERG
  • The Opposition parties are still not organised to effectively Oppose
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 23:57

The amendment I mean is the frictionless trade one tomorrow

citroenpresse · 17/07/2018 00:00

Vauxhall Labour "We really don’t need you to @ us every time our MP basically breathes, thanks" are still not moving to deselect Kate Hoey but surely the time has come.

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 00:01

They seem incapable of that calculation, Red. I think there is some really wishful, bad faith, magical thinking going on.

I think a lot of Leavd voters are going to be shell-shocked when they find out what they've voted for.

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2018 00:03

Amazing. Entire Newsnight programme without a dickie bird about the dead NI backstop. It's not like it could impede an orderly withdrawal or anything.

keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 00:04

20nil.

I really hope you are on to something there.

But what happened tonight is not a good omen for what you suggest is it? Those amendments are guaranteed to result in hard Brexit and no transition period, so why were so many MPs missing from such an important vote and why so few Tory rebels also?

I suppose the WP may not have been accepted by EU but they did leave the door open and were largely positive. Tweaking might have had to be done though. I doubt that is possible at all now.

I feel punch drunk TBH, but your post is the first one to say that there may be a positive to this in the end.

We live in hope.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:13

Labour confirm they are not voting for the early holiday.

May to do embarrassing u turn tomorrow over it.

No one in her own party will want to support it

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 17/07/2018 00:22

DD on newsnight saying he left on a principle. He actively campaigned for brexit, so not good enough to walk away. they get away with all their games without owning it.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:30

Duncan Morrow @ duncan_morrow
The UK govt has now sided against its own Dec. 2017 backstop to save itself from the Brexiteers. Essentially the fragile and hard-won Good Friday Agreement has been unilaterally abandoned without any local consultation. It could be a new watershed in British-Irish history.

OP posts:
20nil · 17/07/2018 00:31

Keyboard: I’m not an optimist generally but do research for a living so am just trying to work out if there is any logic to it. I think TM is hopelessly out of her depth, but scuppering the white paper only days after releasing it makes no sense at all, even by her dreadful standards. We’ll see. Nothing surprises me anymore.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:33

James Coney @ Coney
This was the day an American president stood on foreign soil next to a murderous lying thug and refused to back his own country. Patriots need to stand up and reject the behavior of this president.

Carole Cadwalladr @ Carole Assalam
I really can't believe May is carrying on as if this isn't happening. As if Britain's not right in the middle of it. As if Brexit isn't absolutely part of it. It's not just US citizens who should be appalled & alarmed. This is absolutely our disaster

Forget economics,forget immigration, forget whatever you thought Brexit was about. It doesn't matter. Because it's not any more. THIS is what it's about. The destruction of the North Atlantic alliance. We are in a new world order. We URGENTLY need to re-frame the Brexit debate

Remember Project Fear and the threat of Russia?

Well that.

It was right. And that was one of the big ones everyone said was ridiculous.

OP posts: