Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministers: Operation Over The Cliff

978 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2018 22:34

Bit late and didn't realise the last thread was so close to the end... so this is a very quick OP

What do you think the secret continency plan name the government have in place for the No Deal?

Suggestions Please

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 03/07/2018 12:36

Oh I don't actually think we'll get a second referendum, I just don't fear some sort of civil war if there is one, or even if Brexit is just sacked off altogether.

There aren't enough Brexiters left, especially not Leave voters who are arsed enough to take to the streets.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 12:44

Ah, that's where the extra money for the nhs & defence is coming from:

the govt plans to raise billions from increased fuel duty

That will also have a knock-on effect on the price of all goods (transport & transport of their components, packaging etc)
Will fuel prices be further raised to cover the net loss of Brexit itself ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/02/freeze-on-fuel-duty-may-be-lifted-to-help-meet-nhs-promises

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 12:46

Polls show Leavers / Brexiters are almost as numerous as those who think the Brexit decision was a mistake.

However, despite this, there is still a majority who think we should proceed with Brexit
The divisions as to what sort of Brexit, of course …

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 13:01

The next General Election will be our second referendum. After we've had Brexit, of course.

AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 03/07/2018 13:03

Not if Labour continues to support Brexit.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 13:08

@woman As hoped, Merkel yesterday agreed a face-saving way out for her CSU partners.
Looks like that particular crisis is over.

Interesting, that the CSU's playing the immigration card apparently hurt them in the polls, which may have encouraged them to back down.
Politicians of all parties except the AfD heavily criticised their actions.

There seems to be only a minority in Germany - concentrated possibly in the former DDR - who'll be conned by xenophobic rhetoric; the AfD already has their votes

Merkel held out to avoid immediately expelling refugees who werre admitted by other EU countries, since that would just be putting more load on Italy & Greece particularly.
So she discussed first with those countries what would be acceptable

Deal is: setting up closed “transit centres” – similar to existing facilities at airports – that would allow German authorities to quickly & efficiently process applicants and, if they are rejected, repatriate them to their EU arrival country if that state agrees.

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 13:14

Not if Labour continues to support Brexit.

If they do, we get a Tory government which settles the matter. (Note my post upthread doubting the existence of "democracy" in the UK ...).

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 13:19

There really looks to be a world epidemic of xenophobia, not just in the West, not just where there are refugees entering Sad

Nationalism and fear of the other have been increasing rapidly in India too, so really not to do with refugees, since few refugees would aim to go there for the good life.

Just different castes / religions becoming more suspicious of each other and the majority Hindus especially killing members of Indian minority groups
Populists there also raise fears that the "other" are kidnapping & harming children

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/03/whatsapp-murders-india-struggles-to-combat-crimes-linked-to-messaging-service

“Those who were lynched last month in Assam did not look part of the local culture …
In Hyderabad last month, it was a migrant worker who was killed. In Maharashtra at the weekend, it was members of a fringe tribe.

“The idea is to target anyone who seems different,”
It is part of a discourse of nationalism and extreme polarisation the consumes anyone seen as the other.”

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 13:24

End of days Sad ...

TatianaLarina · 03/07/2018 13:28

Wrt the second referendum debate – first of all a second referendum would be founded on the propaganda and brainwashing of the first. Unfortunately we can’t wipe this slate clean. So it would be just one more brainwashed vote.

Secondly, of course all the Brexiters will cry foul - then what - third time lucky? We can’t keep throwing the dice hoping it falls the way we want. It might not. And then we’re doubly committed to Leave.

Thirdly, popular votes are no substitute for government. Parliament has to sort its shit out.

Fourthly, even if Remain won we have no idea of and no control over the political outcome - how the vote would be implemented. There would be a Tory leadership election, most likely a general election and we could end up with pro-Brexit ditherer Corbyn. The Tories may not vote in a Remain leader to replace May. The Brexit Taliban would push for a further referendum to overturn the vote.

So a further vote would not be definitive, and would not resolve the deep rifts within the government and the country. If anything I think it would cause more problems.

54321go · 03/07/2018 13:29

It's not much of a democracy with the ability of 'the top' to use the process of 'whips' to direct votes, which may well be in opposition the constituency wishes that they voted for.
Yes the public vote but the 'big cheeses' get to dictate whether the public's vote actually counts.
Well done Mrs Merkel and all. I feel there is a greater respect for pragmatism in Germany. Although the leader prepared to resign may have been a bit of a 'sideshow' it did at least focus the attention on things that needed addressing urgently.

54321go · 03/07/2018 13:38

If the vote had been to remain yes there would have been turmoil in the government possibly new elections but that would not have been anywhere near as destructive as the route taken. Immediately after the vote BUSINESSES immediately responded to alarm bells and at least started to think through the scenarios.
IF at a second vote or change of gov looked likely then that would inform their actions and a THOUGHT OUT plan to unhook the UK from the EU could have been worked on before calling A50. It WILL take years to unpick (or now repair).

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/07/2018 13:45

But I don't think the people's vote is a second referendum in that sense is it?
It is literally - here's the deal - do you want it or not?

Whilst I have no doubt there would be attempts at lies on the leavers side - they would have to be of the 'it won't be so bad,' 'we survived the black death' style of talking it up.
The actually deal being nailed down would mean that there was no longer room for unicorns. And any of the JRM and Farage ilk that felt betrayed by it... well it's too late - that's the deal, that's what brexit looks like.

In such a case your more rabid brexiteers would probably either not vote or spoil their ballot paper to show their disgust.

My major fear in this would be that rather than say the choice was deal or remain (and remember heads of state and EU officials have repeatedly said that option is still on the table - it is only us that is insisting in driving this thing forward), they would make the choice deal or crash out. In which case it would be me spoiling my ballot paper.

But surely - even this most incompetent and, frankly, evil govt would not actually give the masses a chance to vote for us to commit national Hari-Kari...

That is why I don't think we will get our people's vote (well - that and I don't believe a deal with ever materialise that we can vote on) because it is only the govt who are staunchly saying remain is not an option. It's only not an option because they won't give it. There will have to be - not only a massive upsurge in public feeling towards a people's vote - but also massive pressure applied from within parliament to make it happen. If time were not a factor, then it would probably happen - but before March? and with a 2 month recess coming up? Probably not ...

But it is called a people's vote and not a second referendum precisely because it is a different question. We could not get 'the same answer' because a different question is being asked. We may still end up following the same course of action, of course - but at least in those circs, there will definitely be a deal and we will know what to expect.

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 13:45

It's not much of a democracy with the ability of 'the top' to use the process of 'whips' to direct votes, which may well be in opposition the constituency wishes that they voted for.

Also, bear in mind that an overwhelming number probably would choose to pay no tax, if they could. So why aren't their wishes ever catered for ?

Then there's the pernicious and ever-malleable notion of "public good". By which we mean people have to damn well do as they are told or else. Which is all very well for the more obvious laws we have. But starts to become decidedly iffy when we start to criminalise people for "repeated viewing of extremist material" (define "repeated", define "extremist").

I feel there is a greater respect for pragmatism in Germany.

Necessity is the mother of invention ....

The best way out of here for the UK (as in the least bloody) is for the political classes (who tend to trial the public by a few decades) to realise that the days of landslides and majorities are over. You'd think they'd have learned after 3 successive elections.

for all the righteous wrath some people directed at the LibDems, we're now missing them sorely.

AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 03/07/2018 13:54

lonelyplanetmum

Just going back to this:

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-5904241/More-6-000-British-broadcasting-jobs-risk-firms-look-Europe-Brexit.html

Discovery, Sony Pictures and Sky likely to be affected. Other broadcasters, such as the BBC and ITV, could need to do the same.

It's selfish of me, but I'm personally glad to read this. I work in this industry and I've been rather dejected about the possibility that I'd have to give it up if I move to the EU. The UK is a world-leader in broadcasting - another wonderful thing thrown on the Brexit pyre.

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 14:34

Maybe young remainers can sue the government too ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44699733

An activist group hopes to sue the UK government over climate change, arguing that it is discriminating against the young by failing to cut emissions fast enough.

The campaigners - known collectively as Plan B - argue that if the UK postpones emissions cuts, the next generation will be left to pick up the bill.

(contd)

Although Brexit is probably the quickest route to the UK reducing emissions ...

lonelyplanetmum · 03/07/2018 14:37

Andshestepped

Well I'm glad it gives you career options at least. EU based businesses should be welcoming to evacuees from these shores.

But overall that's broadcasting, banking, aviation, insurance, pharm, motor, all supply chain businesses etc etc all negatively affected.

Where are the swathes of enthusiastic businesses expanding with new investment flooding in to benefit from the great opportunity that this great nation has chosen for itself? That's what I'd like to know.

I just get this picture of tumbleweeds blowing through our empty streets .

AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 03/07/2018 14:52

lonelyplanetmum

I'm sure they'll be here any minute now...

But it really is the most damning indictment of Brexit of all - so far the business traffic has been only one way.

Talkstotrees · 03/07/2018 16:42

From Peston’s FB page. Interesting.

“This is one of the more important notes I've written recently, because it contains what well-placed sources tell me are the main elements of the Prime Minister's Brexit plan - which will be put to her cabinet for approval on Friday.

I would characterise the kernel of what she wants as the softest possible Brexit, subject to driving only the odd coach over her self-imposed red lines, as opposed to the full coach and horses.

And I will start with my habitual apology: some of what follows is arcane, technical and - yes - a bit boring. But it matters.

Let's start with the PM's putative third way on a customs arrangement with the EU, which has been billed by her Downing Street officials as an almalgam of the best bits of the two precursor plans, the New Customs Partnership (NCP) and Maximum Facilitation (Max Fac).

Last night I described this supposed third way as largely the NCP rebranded - which prompted howls of outrage from one Downing Street official.

But I stand by what I said. Because the new proposal of the PM and her officials, led on this by Olly Robbins, retains the NCP's most controversial element, namely that the UK would at its borders collect duties on imports at the rate of the European Union's common customs tariff.

The UK would in that sense be the EU's tax collector. And although the UK would have the right to negotiate trade agreements with third countries where tariffs could be different from the EU's or zero, companies in the UK importing from those countries would have to claim back the difference from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC), much in the way they currently claim or pay different VAT rates when trading with the EU.

The reason why, from a bureaucratic if not economic viewpoint, the UK would in effect remain in the EU's customs union is that there is no other way of avoiding border checks between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Or at least that is what the PM and her officials now believe.

To be clear, this would be an asymmetric agreement with the EU: Theresa May may ask EU governments to collect customs duties on behalf of the UK from companies based in their respective countries, but she knows they will respond with a decisive no, nay, never.

Which may seem unfair. But actually this would only be a problem if there were an imminent prospect of a future British government wanting to impose higher tariffs than EU ones. And certainly the political climate now - outside of Trumpian America - is for lower tariffs.

Just to be clear, there will be some of Max Fac in this new synthesised customs plan: IT and camera technology employed to reduce the bureaucracy and frictions of cross-border trade.

But the True Brexiters won't be wholly relaxed (ahem) by what they are likely to see as NCP by another name.

And there's more, of course.

Because frictionless trade and an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic cannot just be achieved by aligning customs collection rates.

It also requires alignment of product standards, for goods and agricultural products.

Or at least that is what the PM will insist on with her Cabinet colleagues.

And that alignment would in effect replicate membership of the single market for goods and agri-foods.

Which would see European standards and law continuing, ad infinitum, to hold sway over British manufacturing and food production - though the ultimate court of appeal in commercial disputes. would, in May's and Robbins's formulation, be an extra-territorial international court, like the European Free Trade Area's EFTA court.

Given that the ECJ would still have a locus below this final adjudicating tribunal, I assume the True Brexiters such as Jacob Rees-Mogg will be unamused.

But maybe they would take comfort that a British parliament could always withdraw from the trading arrangement, if there were concerns that the rest of the EU was discriminating against the UK.

At this juncture you are saying, I am sure, "oi! what about services?" - given that the UK is largely a service economy (80% of our economic output, our GDP, is generated by service businesses).

Well there is an aspiration to maximise access to the EU's giant market for services by aligning professional and quality standards, for example.

But equally there is a pragmatic recognition that maximising such access would require minimising restrictions on EU citizens moving to the UK to live and work; there is a calculation by Robbins and his officials that, among the EU's so-called four freedoms, free movement of services and free movement of people are pragmatically connected.

And since the PM has pledged to impose new controls on the free movement of people from the rest of the EU, she accepts that the EU will insist on some new restrictions on the sale of British services in its marketplace.

But May and her ministers are hopeful there is a deal to be done here, a trade-off: preferential rights offered to EU citizens to live and work in the UK, compared to the rights available to citizens from the rest of the world, for improved market access in Europe for British service companies.

We'll see.

In the round, you may conclude - as I have - that Theresa May wants a future commercial arrangement with the EU that is not as deep and intimate as Norway's, but is not a million miles from Switzerland's.

From which there follow two crucial if obvious questions.

Will the EU - its chief negotiator Michel Barnier and the 27 government heads - bite or balk?

If Barnier's word was gospel on this, the plan would be dead at birth, because it does put a wedge between the four freedoms: May wants complete freedom of movement for goods (and capital), but restrictions on people.

May's bet is that his employers, the 27 prime ministers and presidents, will be less dogmatic.

But what about her own cabinet and parliamentary party?

If they are in the True Brexit camp, like Davis, Johnson, Fox, and Gove, won't they cry "infamy, infamy, etc", threaten resignation and launch a coup to oust the PM?

Well, what the PM will say to them is that her deal, she believes, is the only one around that stands even the faintest chance of being agreed in Brussels (though, to repeat, you would be right to be sceptical of that).

Which carries a momentous implication - namely that if they reject her vision of Brexit, the default option of exiting the EU without a deal would become the sole option.

And although many True Brexiters would say "hip hip for that", if a no-deal Brexit were to become the only game in town, there would be a revolt of MPs and Lords against the executive, against the PM and her government.

Parliament would - almost certainly - reject exiting the EU without a deal and could, probably would, vote for the UK to join the European Economic Area and remain in the EU's single market.

That would, for most True Brexiters, turn the UK into what they call a "vassal state".

So come Friday, Johnson, Davis, Fox and Gove face an agonising choice: agree to a Brexit plan from May which will stick in their craws like a rotting mackerel head; or reject it and take the risk that what follows is almost their worst nightmare, not a clean no-deal Brexit, but the detested "Brino", or Brexit in name only.

Of course there is always a chance that if they shout and scream loudly enough, May will buckle - and will allow the cabinet to agree on obfuscation for the White Paper on her Brexit negotiating position, to be published 12 July, rather than a clear and unambiguous plan to be put to the EU, of the sort I've described.

If that were to happen, her authority would be undermined, perhaps fatally. And the possibility of there being no deal with the EU, on divorce and future relationship, would become a serious, potentially catastrophic probability.”

DGRossetti · 03/07/2018 16:57

there is a calculation by Robbins and his officials that, among the EU's so-called four freedoms, free movement of services and free movement of people are pragmatically connected.

in which case Robbins - et ses fonctionnaires - are fucking morons.

The EUs four freedoms are not "pragmatically connected". They are - as the EU has repeatedly stated at every opportunity indivisibly connected.

I suggest we sack Robbins, and employ me - at least I have a grasp of where the Treaty of Rome came from. And it wasn't cheap coal.

Cherrypi · 03/07/2018 18:44

Norway or no deal again?

lonelyplanetmum · 03/07/2018 18:47

Re the chance that May will buckle - and will allow the cabinet to agree on obfuscation for the White Paper on her Brexit negotiating position, to be published 12 July, rather than a clear and unambiguous plan to be put to the EU, of the sort I've described.

Surely no more effing fudge on Friday ...

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 19:23

DG Some of the E27 would go for that. I doubt if it's anywhere near enough to pass even with QMV
If it counts as a trade arrangement, or a mixed deal, then it would have to be unanimous and it is highly likely that several countries would veto it.

Unless we are wrong and the EU is worried enough about a "Versailles" type humiliation of a large neighbour to make an exception.
Also, they'll be very keen to have the UK as an ally if Trump goes through with his trade war - there might be some secret guarantees to some heads of govt (France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, … ) in the WA about that.

Depends on whether the E27 think it would damage the Single Market. If they do, not a chance

I'd love to know whether Robbins genuinely thinks this is actually a possible deal, or if he is just following orders to outline it.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 19:31

No, on reflection, it drives a coach & horses through the SM and there is no time to rewrite everything, even if the E27 wanted to - which they won't.

Looks like another dead parrot asking for cake:
You shake your head in bafflement, but don't hand over any.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2018 19:38

Meanwhile, Amsterdam financial services sector continues to expand, thanks to their Brexit dividend :

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-cboe/amsterdam-adds-to-exchange-brexit-spoils-with-cboe-lse-wins-idUKKBN1JT0NA?rpc=401&

Two of the world’s top exchanges, Chicago’s Cboe Global Markets (CBOE.O) and the London Stock Exchange Group (LSE.L) will open European Union stock trading venues in Amsterdam in time for Britain’s departure from the bloc next March, adding to the Dutch city’s Brexit spoils.