Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministers: Operation Over The Cliff

978 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2018 22:34

Bit late and didn't realise the last thread was so close to the end... so this is a very quick OP

What do you think the secret continency plan name the government have in place for the No Deal?

Suggestions Please

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
woman11017 · 02/07/2018 18:04

thanks BCF I like Mrs Merkel. Hope she's in place for a while yet.

BrexitWife · 02/07/2018 18:33

Going back a bit
If we want half decent public services we have to pay for them through taxation. Even my 15 year old understands this......

Yes but...
My parents are living here but retired and receive their pensions plus some investments from France.
It’s very very clear that they are paying MORE taxes here than in France.
And it’s also clear that the social and heath care is better in France as well as the benefits system.

So yes to have decent public services you need to pay. But it’s not because you are paying that you will get decent services.
Because in the U.K., we are paying a lot but somehow it seems we just dont get value for money on our taxes.....

DGRossetti · 02/07/2018 18:36

Is there any point in "the big sleepover", if the EU has already rejected the draft version of Mays master plan ?

Also, is it a real sleepover ? I'm sure I saw a story somewhere that it's actually just a days discussion ....

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 02/07/2018 18:44

Is there any point in "the big sleepover", if the EU has already rejected the draft version of Mays master plan ?
It makes them look like they're doing something

Mistigri · 02/07/2018 18:50

Brexitwife: taxes are, with some limited exceptions, paid in the state in which you are ordinarily resident. If your parents were paying more tax in France than the UK they would be committing a tax fraud ...

prettybird · 02/07/2018 18:55

It's not as simple as looking at tax on pensions. That doesn't include National Insurance (or equivalent French "payroll" taxes), nor VAT on spending, nor corporation tax.

https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/ This article suggests that the UK is one of the lower tax regimes - hence we get the public services we deserve Sad, not that we need Hmm

The thing that bugs me about this interminable debate about "we can't afford an NHS with an aging population" is that the need won't go awayConfused It will still need to paid for by someone Confused The NHS, for all its flaws, is one of if not the most efficient health care systems in the works in terms of % of GDP (we can argue about how effective it is Wink).

So if we can't afford it, what are the critics/naysayers suggesting? Euthanasia? Hmm Letting the poor and vulnerable die in pain? Allowing the US companies take over our NHS (under a secret trade deal) and then make us pay increased premiums to cover the cost of an insurance based system and their need for profits?

(....and yet I am I favour of relaxing the law on assisted suicide, as if they don't, I will lose my dad sooner than I should, as he'll take himself off to Dignitas in Switzerland while he is still capable of doing it under his own steam but there again, he is privileged in that he can afford that option Sad)

BrexitWife · 02/07/2018 18:57

Nope you misunderstood.
Taxes are first laid in France according to the French tax system.
All their income has then to be declared in the U.K., taxes are again calculated according to the U.K. system.
If taxes in the U.K. are lower, they don’t pay anything in the U.K.
If british taxes are higher, they pay the difference.

As it turns out, they still have to pay a lot more to the U.K., which means that taxes overall in France are lower than taxes overall in the U.K.

Nothing illegal going on there.

BrexitWife · 02/07/2018 19:01

Yep appreciate that I’m only talking about income tax here.
VAT I assume has been the same in the EU anyway?

The lower tax regime is for COMPANIES surprise surprise.

What I’m getting at is the fact that as people, we pay much more for lower services.
And I think that’s what is hurting people in general. Lost of taxes coming of your pocket but low services too which means you still need to pay for some of them yourself (eg tutors if education is falling, private health to be seen quicker etc etc) on the top of it.

Companies on the other side ... well they get the zero contract, lower taxes already (and they want to make it even ‘better’ for them), less protection of the workers. etc etc

OlennasWimple · 02/07/2018 19:06

The away day from hell (not a sleepover remember, not enough beds for everyone....) is due to start at 10.30am this coming Friday. No news, though, whether they will all have to throw a ball around and share two interesting facts about themselves or any similar ice-breaker exercise....

54321go · 02/07/2018 19:40

Strangely Mrs Merkel and several other leaders of EU countries seem to be moving forward. They don't all see eye to eye but are discussing it and seem to be making progress. I wonder if there is a moral to this?

SacrebleuLondres · 02/07/2018 19:57

Don't mean to barge in. Has this thread discussed Clause 10 of the Withdrawal Act? Seems relevant to a crash out. Seems crashing out or any border in Ireland may now be illegal.

54321go · 02/07/2018 20:15

@Sacrebleu
This thread seems to wobble about a bit of late as there seems to be so little coming from the Gov and as a result are sort of 'killing time'.
As an overall impression actually leaving is almost impossible legally I feel and it it is a matter of finding the least damaging path.
I am not sure if Clause 10 has been discussed here specifically but the more learned contributors to this thread are likely to have pointed out any real loopholes for leaving 'easily'.
Even the 'leavers' have gone conspicuously quiet.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2018 20:16

Brexitwife When services & infracstructure are badly managed and underfunded for decades, they cost more just to try to keep up.
Rather like neglecting repairs & maintenance of a house - it then becomes far more expensive to run and some repairs are unaffordable, so it problems can spiral.

One issue with the UK budget is that - even after all that austerity - it runs at about 5% defiict annually.
i.e. the govt spends 5% more than it earns and has to borrow to fill the gap.
I read that the annual interest on the National Debt is nearly as big as the Defence Budget

re your relatives in France:
Maybe there are different exemptions on certain sources of income in France, because the UK does have lower income tax than most other W European countries
BUT
it may be that other countries tax their higher earners more and the majority of the population less
iirc, France put its top rate up to 70% under President Hollande and the top rate is still higher than in the UK.

I live in Germany - definitely a higher % than in the UK, but pay is higher too, at least for scientists.
Far better public services & infrastructure.

I'm puzzled at the double taxation you described, because I pay tax on all my worldwide income here, not just what I earn in Germany;
when I receive the UK state pension, I'll pay German tax on that too.
Since I sold my flat, I no longer have any income that is liable for UK tax, according to HMRC
My German tax accountant checks & signs it all off, so I'm paying correctly in Germany too.

prettybird · 02/07/2018 20:18

According to this website https://www.statista.com/statistics/272440/payroll-taxes-in-eu-countries/#0 France is one of the higher countries in terms of payroll taxes (at an average of 47 per 100€ Shock) compared to the UK's 19 per 100 Hmm

Pensioners wouldn't necessarily be paying any payroll taxes - but employees are and it will factor into what governments can afford.

VAT isn't the same across Europe - but as it happens, both the UK and France are on 20%.

I don't know enough about the French domestic (and business) rates to know how much of a burden they are, compared to the UK. (being in Scotland, we pay an additional premium because we live in a Band G house. I accept that Smile)

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2018 20:23

Parliament approved clause 10, but can later approve somehing that over-rules that.
Or the govt could use its Henry VIII powers.

There is nothing "legal" preventing a crash out or a Brexit that requires a hard NI border (on both sides)

The big deterrent is the UK economic meltdown as an automatic consequence, followed by probable political meltdown

Even the GFA is just a treaty which can be formally ended, like all treaties - except that the Uk would be internationally condemned
and the Irish-American lobby could cause Congress to block any future trade deal, even impose sanctions.

lonelyplanetmum · 02/07/2018 20:29

This thread seems to wobble about a bit of late

I think it's since it moved from EU ref to Brexit. I always thought that the bloody Brexit word was s problem.

Give something a name, and then like a baby it becomes real with an identity. If it didn't have a name it could just morph back into the ether.

MrsRRR · 02/07/2018 20:29

Legal?

This govt???

Dont make me laugh!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2018 20:29

On difference in total tax between the UK & other countries is the Community Charge:
In Germany, there is a tax on each house / land, but it seems about €300 per year for a Rhine flat, instead of £260 per month for a similarly sized Thames one (well outside London)

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2018 20:33

The thread wobbles, while waiting for May to finish wobbling

Westministenders are mainly about Brexit, but also noting what happens more generally in UK & international politics.

lonelyplanetmum · 02/07/2018 20:33

France is one of the higher countries in terms of payroll taxes (at an average of 47 per 100€ ) compared to the UK's 19 per 100

At 60.2%, Denmark last year had the highest top personal income tax rate among the 34 countries in the OECD.

Yet The Danes have a stable government, low levels of public corruption, and access to high-quality education and health care -but the vast majority of Danes happily pay: They believe higher taxes can create a better society.

Plus The World Happiness Report regularly ranks Denmark among the top three happiest of 155 countries surveyed – a distinction that the country has earned for seven consecutive years.

54321go · 02/07/2018 20:47

@Lonely
Much of the time previously BCF and the other learned contributors were using reasoned discussions to suggest to leavers that things were not as simple as walking away from Europe, and were being told frequently that they had 'won' and anyone who would prefer to remain should get over it.
With the announcements by Airbus, BMW and others a bit more doubt has been creeping into some leavers and it is getting a bit quiet on that front. The name change happened around the time of the marches in London and elsewhere so I think it is a cumulative effect.
Nice headline comment by the Belgian EU minister saying that 'our' Mr Farage is a massive waste of EU money and highlighting his non attendance at so many meetings. Can't possibly have anything to do with complaints by UK fishermen about quotas surely?

SacrebleuLondres · 02/07/2018 20:49

WTF is wrong with the UK. Magna Carta. Rule of law over man has gone full circle. It's become a shithole. In two years.

Are the UK's institutions that weak?

We need our country back.

54321go · 02/07/2018 20:53

@Sacre
'We need our country back', who are you suggesting has taken it?

GladAllOver · 02/07/2018 20:53

We need our country back.

That was the excuse for Brexit. How is that working out?

DGRossetti · 02/07/2018 21:03

The BBCs reportage of Mays big news has shifted slightly to make it sound like the EUs is at fault ....

Brexit: May says EU must treat UK blueprint 'seriously'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44671507

How can anyone take the UK seriously with DD and BoJo in the cabinet ?