Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

We can't : ds is off to Aberdeen Uni in September, so that us stuck for 4 years.

And despite my multi-national background, all my European ancestors are one generation too far removed to claim citizenship of another EU country

I could claim my South African passport back - but much as I love the country, that would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire although that does depend on how hot this frying pan gets

And dh and I are too old (in our late 50s) really to start new careers abroad to get visas elsewhere.

I'm going to have to place my hope in Scotland winning its independence!

I'm in my 30s and have no kids. I've no rights to citizenship of another country, so I'd have to go for the visa option, but there is an EU country that I have strong connections to (family members living there) and visit all the time. I'd love to live there, but it would necessitate a career change for me and probably my husband (though he has more scope for remote working).

The UK feels alien to me now. I've never been a nationalist (borders are arbitrary really, we're all human), so the EU felt like a progressive concept to me (although it's riddled with problems of course, but nothing's perfect). I'm so sad and angry about Brexit, and really the only thing keeping me here is my job.

Also, the weather here is shite.

Although it is a bit of a 'leaver' stance I don't think it is in the best interests of the country to push deadlines and A50 back at all.
In a way, in or out are both pretty bad but the steady drip of business life blood will actually 'kill' the country.
If the MPs cancelled their imminent summer holidays and REALLY discussed tactics on how to get out of the mess they have created there may be some merit. Maybe there is a secret plan and they all go on recess and just fail to come back (here's hoping).
@prettybird
Late 50's is not too late to start again. Maddening to have to do it though.

We have to leave in line with our constitutional requirements. If our constitutional requirements mean we need a vote, that gives us a very good arguement for the EU Commission to give us an extension should -when we need it.

Hence why Grieve would be so keen on the amendment, despite Tugendhat's comments about May's government collapsing if the deal is rejected by parliament and a meaningful vote amendment therefore being pointless.

Grieve is just trying to remove the gun to our heads so a bad deal can be rejected AND we don't automatically go over the cliff in doing so.

But yes, it does mean there is less reason for the EU to give us a better deal. But on the other hand it does give us the opportunity Brexiteers want - to be able to walk away from the table too. Just not go over the cliff like they would like.

Its already looking like the chances are that 29th March 2019, will move, have gone up.

Which obviously is no bad thing.

Plus if the government don't put that amendment to the Lords, Hailsham definitely will. And the Lords WILL support it, sending it back to the Commons. At which point we are back to the rebels either being talked out of it by the government (not going to happen if May reneges on their deal) or a rebellion for which there are the numbers.

Btw, remember Cleggy is well connected in Brussels. What he has said has been lost in the mire, but it is reassuring.

@Andshe
Although not ideal living as an Expat in the EU I think there would be no massive problems that can't be overcome. If there are I'm stuffed!
Of course it would be a big jump for you both but certainly worth mulling over with a traditional MN bottle of wine.

@AndShe it is certainly on the cards for me and the dcs. H doesn’t want to move and has chosen the head in the sand tactic to deal with it all.
Problem is, both dcs are teens and I have 4 years of exams in front of me (GCSE, Alevel) so really the worst time for them to go and love somewhere else. If they had been just a year younger (so 12 and 14yo) I would have gone for it.

So atm, I have one plan to leave as in a crash type of situation if we end up with a No Deal. I have friends that can house me for a little while until I can get a house etc..
Otherwise, I’m leaving in 5 years when both dcs have done their Alevel. This country will have to do a hell of a lot to prove it’s a nice place to stay after those awful 3 years.

I really wish H had been more proactive 2 years ago but he really really doesn’t want to go anywhere but where we live (not even within the U.K.)

Xpost
@AndShe yes you might need to jump through some hoops but seriouosy emigrating in Europe will much easier and less stressful than what emigrating to the U.K. can mean.
Besides, you can move now wo any issue (the FOM is still there) and I suspect eu cinutries will have some system in place for people who are already living in their country at the time of the U.K. leaving.
So I would really go for it, esp if you have no dcs!

Mother - if you can't remember 1987, then your perception of the SNP as "Tartan Tories" is based on deliberate smearing by a nervous the Labour Party, as it goes back to the 50s and 60s (when it probably was true - but that's over 50 years ago) - and to a deliberate re-writing of history to absolve themselves of any guilt by the Labour Party that it was the SNP who ushered in the Thatcher Government by losing the Labour Party the vote of No Confidence in 1979 (conveniently forgetting their own members who triggered it - as admitted by Jim Callaghan himself in his autobiography). So you've been had!

Many of the current members & supporters of the SNP are former Labour Party members (myself included: Labour through and through until 1997).

I still don't know if I'd continue to vote SNP if and when we achieve our independence: it would depend in their policies and whether the Scottish Labour Party had managed to reinvent itself as a stand alone party, rather than just a branch office of London. Ditto with the LibDems.

54321 - we'd be into our 60s by the time ds has finished Uni and I really don't want to leave until then.

What is the Trade Bill coming back in July ? Is the government likely to lose this ? I'm losing track of everything and starting to really think the whole thing will implode.

Yes I have a get out of Dodge-type emergency plan for a crash out (which I've mentioned on the previous thread - I've name-changed from RealityHasALiberalBias).

I want to change career over the next few years anyway - my longer term plan has always been to work from home and move back to my bumpkin roots in the countryside. It might have to be a different nation's countryside now though!

DGRossetti Apart from Brexit why are you so down on England and prefer the EU and Scotland over where I presume you live England?

At least you admitted you presume.

I am not down on England - although your post implies that unless I was actively running up and down the streets singing "God Save the Queen", anything I said would be taken as so.

I am down on the sickening amounts of hypocrisy that abounds where the UK is happy to breakaway from the union of the EU, but where Scotland cannot then breakaway from the union of the UK. Unlike the part-time unionists in England, I can connect with some immigrants to Scotland and Wales for hopefully obvious reasons.

I am also down on the fact that the two largest political parties in England - Tory and Labour - are committed to "Brexit" (in quotes because no one in the world has a clue what it means*), leaving voters who do not believe in Brexit nowhere to really go.

I am even more down on England because although born here, I grew up learning what it is to have a "funny name" in England in the 70s (quote one teacher in secondary school - of course my Dad was fighting the Eyeties during the war ). That subsided right up till 2016, when to my horror my wife started hearing jokes about her surname and being asked "when you off home then ?". Horror turned to something indescribable when DS told me he was being called names too.

So fuck Brexit and fuck Brexiteers and fuck the little Englanders whose one defining characteristic seems to be a belief that the world owes them a living because of an accident of birth. And then fuck them some more.

I am sure there are people even more angry than me.

Trouble with all these delays and times moving back, makes it awkward to know what to do, no point in emigrating , if in the end you didn’t need too, I like Living here with all it’s faults and have very elderly parent and in laws who I wouldn’t like to just leave at their time of need.

DGRossetti So why let a few people make you hate England as you well know not everybody is like that, there are idiots in every country, I was working in Wales when they were playing England, the stick I got was not banter but real hatred just for being English, I sure some Scottish people call us English some choice names, idiots everywhere

DGRossetti Sorry forgot to add there seems to be a lot of hatred from the SNP to the English, I never done anything wrong to them and I get on great with my Scottish father in law

DGRossetti So why let a few people make you hate England

Where have I said I "hate" England ? Hate is a very strong word, and not one I try to bandy about.

What is the Trade Bill coming back in July ? Is the government likely to lose this ?

Yes, Apparently w/c 9th according to Laura Kuennsberg. But its TBC.

And yes, the government are likely to loose it unless they can come up with a plan which looks exactly the same.

Worst case scenario, we could ship out, DH could probably stay with his current employer but from a foreign office. Otherwise, he would get a job. Lots of foreign firms in his field are actively trying to recruit Brits.

We could ship out, and rent our home here. Which is partly why I'm nervous of selling and buying the wrong thing. Our house now is very rentable. More difficult with something a lot bigger. DS doesn't start school until next September too.

We definitely have options despite not having a foreign passport either of us can apply to. We are in an extremely fortune position, in the vast majority of scenarios bar martial law.

Phone hasn't rung yet about the person who was viewing the house the other day. I can't honestly say I'm disappointed atm. Just need something more reassuring coming from twitter and no10.
I'm not expecting it for some months yet.

Thanks Red. Latest tweets from Laura Kueunnsberg saying amendment to appease Tory Rebels may be faltering. Sorry not sure how to link.

Wasn't having a go at you Mother - just a bit of gentle teasing

Maybe as an immigrant (1964) to this country, I was never inculcated in the perception!

And for the record, dh is a lapsed Glaswegian Catholic and will vote SNP as a means to an end until Scotland is independent.

Rosstac - the SNP has never been "anti-English" - it is anti Westminster and anti the unbalanced Union - and rightly so. There are many English members of the SNP (both within - and increasingly outwith - Scotland). The recent power grab - which is to last 7 years, while secret trade negotiations go on - demonstrates the lack of respect shown to Scotland the devolution settlement.

If the SNP were so anti-English, it wouldn't have stated in the White Paper that anyone living in Scotland (which includes many English) at independence could choose to claim a Scottish passport. If it were anti-English, it would have made Scottish "ethnicity" the defining requirement of voting in the Indyref, rather than simply being on the electoral register in Scotland, regardless of your nationality (to the fury of many expat Scots, who were frustrated at not being able to vote).

Kuenssberg now tweeting that the rebels are rejecting the compromise amendment.

Who could have predicted this?

I might actually watch QT tonight (it's usually too rage-inducing), as Grieve is on.