Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

As is Isabel Oakeshott.

Please, please remember that remainers lost the right to use catch all terms, that's the sole right of leavers now.

"Ah - yes, a Brexiteer has the audacity so speak up in your charming echo chamber and that automatically means I must be a russian troll"

But it isn't an echo chamber, there is serious debate of issues, but you came in and made an attack on those here.

nice!

Topcat

A debate implies two sides. There is only one side in this thread.

Revisionist! A great word, rarely heard on Mumsnet since the Great Toilet Brush Debate of 2013.
On another note, IIRC the LD manifesto of 2010 included an EU referendum “to settle the debate”. But I could be wrong.

I think the referendum was put to Parliament as non binding. It was to be an advisory referendum.

It is in the interests of Putin to see the EU damaged. Divide and conquer. And don't think these people have finished. And their bag boys/girls. There was something about Farage being involved in the Dutch referendum about an EU trade treaty with the Ukraine. Like hobgoblins lighting a match.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/eurocrats-investigate-deal-backed-by-nigel-farage-behind-dutch-r/

My head says its Thursday today. I've been watching too much BBC Parliament. It is so dull I've gained a day.

hello heyduggee, these threads have been going since June 2016. They aren't new.

Don't worry, we aren't getting what we want. Reality is no one is. Consequence of trying to rush undoing 40 years of legal alignment and cooperation.

That isn't affected by what class you happen to be.

Hey Duggee rocks though.

Not answering questions. Arguing about the whys and wherefores of a 2 year old referendum (yawn).

Can we talk about this weeks issues in parliament rather than rehashing old ones?

I am cooking west country water buffalo faggots (my life is full of excitement and exotic foods). No cooking instructions on package. So gas mk 4 for 40 mins should do it?

Dearie me.

"A debate implies two sides. There is only one side in this thread."

Then offer an alternate perspective or opinion rather than name calling?

Oh and this week's issues in parliament are being discussed here.

gaspode you mean go back to what we were just doing before someone came in and accused us of not doing that? I'm sure we can

Red toothbrush

I find myself agreeing with you - we are headed for a situation where the uk loses its previous ‘special’ status (rebate et al) within the eu, yet doesn’t really leave either.

And yes, hey duggee is excellent. Of course I watch it in the original Russian being, as I am, a putin troll

There are leavers who have debated meaningfully on here like Howabout or Corcory whose views I don't necessarily agree with but who I respect. They've made valid arguments about the reasons for their vote and their hopes for the future.

The fact that noone recently has still not come on to explain how things are going to work in this brave new Brexit world, how the border, paperwork, IT and infrastructure issues are going to be resolved once the UK is a third country, let alone how we deal with the border issue in NI is hardly the Remainers on here's fault

A debate implies two sides. There is only one side in this thread.

This isn't necessarily a thread to debate tbh.

Its more a thread following events and political incidents relating to Brexit or might influence Brexit.

I certainly have never claimed it isn't an echo chamber. It is.

Its purpose isn't about opinions primarily. Whatever we say here, doesn't change what is happening.

It is more often an explanation of what going on, and information about Brexit news.

Leaver are welcome to join, but as I say, its really about ideological opinion first. Its more about processing whats happening. This tends to mean its about experts and legal realities rather than ideology which is often mistaken for 'remoaning' or not accepting the will of the people. This seems to be a bit of communication barrier in the way people voted and how they interpret what is happening though.

Pretty bird

Brexit failure is a self fulfilling prophecy. The political and chattering classes never wanted it. Hey presto, it has now become all too difficult.

sorry typo.
*Leavers are welcome to join, but as I say, its NOT really about ideological opinion first.

It was always going to be difficult, and that was clear from the start. It was the leaders of the leave campaign and their supporters that said it would be easy.

If leave voters chose to believe one over the other that is their responsibility and their choice.

Oh and its leave supporters leading the leave negotiations... how can it be down to those who backed remain?

Borntobequiet - I don't think the LibDem manifesto of 2015 did though .

....which may have been to balance the Conservative commitment to hold one.

I could be wrong though.

Brexit was never an ideological issue.
It was always a legal one first.

If we were serious about leaving the EU, we needed to acknowledge this, and not trigger a50 before we were ready. It was something that could not be rushed. But we tried to.

Reality is that we can not have practical things in place by deadlines we ourselves have set. Thus decisions have to be made around that, rather than around ideological positions. Cos, reality.

If Brexit had been thought out, then it would have been very different. And perhaps people here would not feel the way they do.

All of this, isn't about it suddenly becoming 'too difficult', its about politicians failing to acknowledge how difficult it was from the start and pretending it was easy only for it to bite them on the arse.

Damn right the country knew what it was voting for! And Ro/Ro (roll on/roll off transport was one of those things it voted for. Because it wouldn't really be leaving the EU if it continued in any truster trader or other way. The 18 mile tailbacks will put a smile on the face of the Brexiteers. And the European Medicines Agency regulation of medicines and clinical trials for rare diseases.

Actually looked at that Dominic Cummings barking session (in many ways) to the Parliamentary Committee. He said that the EU has killed people because of the testing and trials which assess the efficacy and safety of medicine. I think he seemed to think you should just give people medicine at any stage of development.

Tedtoothbrush

Oh dear. And now we disagree. I reject your ‘ideology’ as you put it. The EU is a supranational institution that pretends it is a simple trading bloc (it isn’t: its ambition is much more than that). The EU is the European political settlement that finally - after two world wars - settled the issue of German economic primacy on the continent.

Do I want to trade? Yes. Do I want to be subsumed into the eu over the course of the next 50 years? No.

Hark at me with my fake news! Ro/Ro was what the people voted against.

Dh has been spending the last fortnight taking down his dad's old greenhouse (he only died 7 years ago ) and putting it back up in our garden.

It should help us to start growing more of our own veg in future years - it may well become necessary We already have raspberries and a very productive plum tree in the garden Plus 6 raised beds - although one is given over to asparagus. Looking forward to our first asparagus harvest (albeit a small one the first season) next year

This is a good article which explains how the whole Brexit thing is probably going to stir up a hornets nest in NI. Fools rush in...

But actually winning the referendum was not supposed to happen because it creates existential problems for Northern Irish Unionism. These include not just the problem of the Irish border—the insuperable contradiction between the requirement of the 1998 Good Friday peace agreement for a porous border and the European Union’s need for a hard border with post-Brexit Britain—but also the even deeper folly of upsetting the careful balance created by that 1998 peace agreement. All the pre-Brexit evidence was that Unionism had been doing quite well out of that agreement: Catholics, no longer disgruntled, now assured of equal treatment and a share in power after many decades of feeling like second-class citizens, were making their peace with life in Northern Ireland and postponing the dream of Irish unity indefinitely into the future. Brexit, by wrenching them out of the EU against their will, forces them to raise once again all the large questions of long-term national identity that had been successfully suspended.

www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/06/11/how-ulster-unionists-block-brexit/

I reject your ‘ideology’ as you put it. The EU is a supranational institution that pretends it is a simple trading bloc (it isn’t: its ambition is much more than that). The EU is the European political settlement that finally - after two world wars - settled the issue of German economic primacy on the continent.

With respect, where did I say differently? You are making some huge assumptions there.

My main problem with Brexit, is how badly it has been handled and how you can not just undo laws and trade deals with the click of fingers.

If we wanted to leave the CU and the Single Market we needed to be prepared to do that. As in have the infrastructure to do that. Both physical, institutional and political plan.

I DO have views which are sceptical of the EU and its ambition. But having been in the EU for 40 years, we can not just walk away unless we want to cripple ourselves for the next 100 years.

It is the failings of our OWN politicians that have made Brexit a farce, not the existence and ideological beliefs and ambitions of the EUs.

But do carry on, telling me I know fuck all and what my opinion and ideological position is. It is entertaining to be pre-judged and to listen to such assumptions.