Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

Why couldn’t the government see it ?

They could! That's why they backed Remain. Trouble is, they were too complacent, didn't bother to campaign, and now we're in the shit.

There is no way to square the circle. It was always going to be a shambles.

As much as you can be upset at leave voters, I don’t think many people could have expected the complete and utter shambles the government is at the moment, I goes to show life goes on even when the gov haven’t got there hand on the till

Check my posting history for 16th June 2016.

I can assure you, some of us saw this shower of shit a long way off.

I can assure you, some of us saw this shower of shit a long way off.

It was warned of during the coalition ...

So why did the government give the vote if they knew it was not going to work, it just not logical, I know I’ll fly a plane this afternoon never done it before, what could go wrong?

DGRossetti So why did the government vote by a majority to give the people the vote if they knew it would cause this many problems politically, I just don’t understand why,

They gave the vote because Cameron arrogantly and recklessly thought it was an easy win and it would shut up the hard line eurosceptics who were a thorn in his side (and previous Tory Leaders) once and for all.

He fucked it up, because he didn't understand how much austerity had affected large parts of the populace.

In other words incompetence.

user - To save the Tory Party from a split.

So why did the government give the vote if they knew it was not going to work, it just not logical, I know I’ll fly a plane this afternoon never done it before, what could go wrong?

What do you think the vote was about ? (Clue: nothing to do with the EU).

We got a vote, because Cameron didn't want the Tory party splitting into pro/anti EU factions.

We are where we are because Theresa May doesn't want the Tory party splitting into pro/anti EU factions.

It's one of the few times in politics that it really is that simple.

By the way, remember the result was not binding on parliament

RedToothBrush I agree he was out of touch, but the vast majority of the government voted for it as well

DGRossetti well that worked well , because they are well and truly split now,

What, the government of the time? I really don't think Cameron and Osborne voted to leave, however much I dislike them. I wouldn't be surprised to find that gove voted Remain as well.

The government gave us the vote in an attempt to solve internal divisions over the EU within the Tory party and they arrogantly assumed Remain would win. This arrogance and complacency has led to the shambles we are in now.

DGRossetti well that worked well , because they are well and truly split now,

Not they're not - we still have one Tory party, and most people (that vote) in the UK do it on rosette colour and nothing else. Look how quickly the SDP sank without trace as an example of what happens to spin off parties.

Anyway, it's much better you feel the pain than the Tory party, I'm sure you'd agree. Which is what you did by voting Leave. And you were told at the time too. So it's hard to really know what more anyone could have done ?

Would Mmme care for a wafer thin, Belgium chocolate mint?
To go with the French, German, Italian or Spanish wine?
Sorry, back to the show(down).

I really don't think Cameron and Osborne voted to leave,

They were - and are - remainers.

The one time I saw Cameron speak in public (DS school) he was visibly passionate about Europe.

Same reason really. Arrogance and naivety.

Plus get rid of UKIP.
Plus opposition parties thought that the government if they lost wouldn't be such utter morons and go for a hard brexit.

No one talked of leaving the customs union and the single market prior to the referendum itself remember. Including key Brexiteers.

That all came from May herself in October 2016 when she gave her citizens of nowhere speech.

The fact there was no plan and there was no singular vision of Brexit. Indeed the fact there wasn't was deliberately used as a tactic by the leave campaigns to exploit xenophobia, ideas of the British empire, public ignorance and a huge sense of economic hopelessness.

Has anyone told DD or TM? Have they understood/responded?

www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/13/brexit-parliament-wont-be-allowed-to-take-charge-of-talks-in-no-deal-scenario-minister-tells-tory-rebels-politics-live 17:11

Earlier I said that, at the start of the EU withdrawal bill debate, Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and Sir Keir Starmer said an amendment passed yesterday with virtually no attention paid to it would effectively keep the UK in the single market. (See 1.55pm and 2.41pm.)

This is what Clarke, the Conservative former chancellor, said about the amendment.

It was the most significant thing that happened yesterday, but in the circus that surrounded everything, and the timetable that stopped us debating it, nobody so far has taken any notice. The legally binding commitment yesterday extends the needs of the Irish border to the whole of the United Kingdom. So we’re talking about Dover, and we settled that yesterday. We’re not having a border down the Irish sea, so the United Kingdom has got to negotiate an arrangement with the EU as a whole that has no new frontier barriers. So effectively we are going to reproduce the customs union and the single market and the government will not be able to comply with yesterday’s legal obligation unless it does so.

Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, said this was a “very significant amendment”. He explained:

We’ve now got a political commitment in December to no hard border, no infrastructure, no checks and no controls [at the border]. We have a binding law to that effect. And it goes to the “maximum facilitation” because, if “maximum facilitation” does involve infrastructure, checks or controls, it would be unlawful under the provision passed yesterday. And therefore it cannot happen.

And this is what Grieve, the Conservative former attorney general, said.

Not only will we have to stay in a form of customs arrangement amounting to a union, but we’re also going to have to have a high level of regulatory alignment because otherwise the life that takes place along the border will be impossible because of different regulations on either side.

Cameron also, in his hubris when he made a binding commitment that in the event of a Conservative Government that he would hold a Referendum on the EU (to get the anti-EU MPs off his back), assumed that the LibDems would be back in coalition with him and so save him from actually having to follow through

He never expected to win an outright majority

And Labour had learnt, following the Indyref, that they would get hammered as they did in Scotland in 2015 if they campaigned even for something they believed in alongside the Remain Conservatives, like Cameron. Hence their lacklustre Remain campaign (and that's not even factoring in that Corbyn was never really a Remainer thanks to his outdated views and misconceptions about the EU )

I believe Corbyn would relish a crash out Brexit - he knows revolution is usually preceded by collapse.

GaspodeWonderCat, its amazing that Leavers of all shades have completely missed that one. Especially the Brexiteers. Also notable that the Tory Rebels and Keir Starmer are very much aware of what that motion actually meant.

As I say, the ERG got lawyered. It will filter out slowly.

The EU, of course, will completely understand that amendment.

Long and short of it, is that most MPs haven't got a fucking clue what they are voting for / against. Their lack of understanding is utterly shocking.

steve hawkes @steve_hawkes
Anna Soubry says there's no alternative to single market, customs union - "suck it up"

Reality sucks.

Did I remember correctly that not a single member of the Cabinet is a lawyer? And that quite a few of the rebels are ?

Hell mend the Government (and Brexiteers) for having such disdain for pesky experts

I believe Corbyn would relish a crash out Brexit - he knows revolution is usually preceded by collapse.

I don’t know enough of Corbyn to know what he would or wouldn’t want, but certainly the possibility of riots is not an unthinkable one if you look at what happened in August 2011.

And that sounds like I’m excited by the thought . Not at all, quite the opposite