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Brexit

Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2018 16:09

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

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DGRossetti · 13/06/2018 13:37

weegingerdug.wordpress.com/author/weegingerdug/

Back before the independence referendum, Ruth Davidson told us that a vote to remain a part of the UK was a vote to strengthen and entrench devolution. Aye. Right. As far as Scottish democracy is concerned, the Westminster Parliament is the biggest waste of time since someone tried to explain to Scottish Tory MSP Jackson Carlaw that roadsigns in the Gaelic language don’t actually cause potholes.

When Ewok Mundell, the supposed voice of Scotland in the UK cabinet, failed to present the necessary amendments to the EU Exit bill at the third reading or the report stage some months ago, he faithfully promised Scotland’s MPs that they’d be able to debate how the EU Exit Bill was going to affect the devolution settlement when the bill was returned from the House of Lords to the Commons. Well fat chance of that.

Instead of a strengthened and entrenched devolution we got a motion passed in Westminster that permits the UK Government to trash the Scotland Act, to throw a bucket of cold water on the last dying embers of the Sewel Convention, and to thumb their nose at the result of the Scottish devolution referendum. In the UK, the only referendum results that need to be respected are those that suit the Tories.

No Scottish MPs were called to speak. Instead of Scotland’s MPs holding the Westminster Government to account for its handling of Scottish interests, we got just over 15 minutes of Tories using the debate as an opportunity to slag off the Scottish Government, followed by an hour of points of order, most of which were equally composed of Tories using the debate as an opportunity to slag off the Scottish Government.

This is what passes for Scotland’s ability to hold the UK Government to account in the House of Commons. Several of those Tory MPs seemed indignant that anyone from the SNP should express any opinion at all.

The devolution issue was only allocated a short amount of time by the British Government’s managers. There was no time to move any amendments. There was all of 19 minutes allocated to discuss Clause 15 which deals with devolution (originally Clause 11 of the EU Exit Bill). This is the clause which seizes powers over devolved competencies for seven years. Scotland’s MPs were not given any time to debate and discuss it, despite the promises made by the Scottish Secretary of State.

The SNP’s Westminster leader Ian Blackford addressed the Speaker of the House of Commons, asking what options were available to MPs to ensure that the British Government really understands the real concern that people in Scotland have about this unprecedented power grab and how can Scottish MPs make sure that their voices are heard. A Tory MP shouted in reply, “suicide”. You’ll have had your valued and equal partner in a family of nations, Scotland.

The Scottish Conservatives naturally sided with their bosses to allow the devolution settlement to be unilaterally trashed by the British Government, and the Labour party and the Lib Dems did bugger all to stop them. You can expect the Tories to do all they can to destroy the powers of the Scottish Parliament. It’s what Tories do. Well that and answering every question with “Scotland doesn’t want another referendum.” Being surprised that the Conservative party is bent on trashing the devolution settlement is like being surprised that Dracula doesn’t give blood donations.

Labour on the other hand pose as the party of devolution. The devolution settlement was their baby. Labour sold the devolution settlement to Scotland after the long dark nightmare of the Thatcher era as a means for Scotland to protect itself from untrammelled Tory rule. Yet when that devolution settlement is threatened by the Conservatives, Labour wrings its hands and does nothing to stop it. They would prefer to see the devolution settlement destroyed, a settlement that the people of Scotland voted for in two referendums, rather than stand against the UK Government and take the same side as an SNP administration in Holyrood. When Scotland is threatened, you can always count on Labour to abstain.

You know, personally I may be a strong advocate for Scottish independence, but holding the view that Scotland is best served by remaining a part of the UK is a perfectly legitimate opinion. It’s not my opinion. I think those who hold that view are profoundly mistaken, but there is nothing inherently dishonourable in the belief that Scotland should remain a part of the UK.

However what really sticks in my craw is when opponents of independence are so terrified of adding fuel to the fires of evil separatism by overtly criticising the UK Government’s treatment of Scotland and its trashing of the devolution settlement that they refuse to stand up for Scotland within their precious UK. It means that even on their own terms they are failing because they would rather that Scotland was abused within this so-called Union than give succour to those of us who seek self-determination. That is dishonourable. That is contemptible.

By failing to stand up for Scotland’s interests within the UK all they are proving is that the only way Scotland’s interests can be served is through independence. They are making the case for independence by demonstrating that Scotland’s voice cannot be heard within the framework of the UK. That’s precisely what we saw in the sham debate in the House of Commons this evening. For those of you who cling to the quasi-religious belief that St Jeremy of Corbyn will deliver us from Tory evil, you got your answer today. Jeremy doesn’t give a toss about Scotland’s interests. When push comes to shove you can rely on the Labour party to abstain. Hugh Gaffney made a wee intervention before abstaining. It wasn’t a remotely useful intervention, but at least we can be grateful that he didn’t say anything racist or homophobic.

It’s at moments like this that you wonder what the point is of Scotland sending MPs to Westminster. And the answer is, none. There is no point. The Tories were always going to ram this measure through by fair means or foul. It’s clearer now than it ever was that if Scotland is going to make her voice heard, it can’t be done through the British Parliament. That’s not a Parliament that speaks for us. It’s a Parliament that dictates to us. It’s a Parliament that ignores us. It’s a Parliament that treats us with contempt.

After the independence referendum, the playwright Alan Bisset pointed out that those who voted No might have thought that they were demonstrating their faith and belief in Britain, but that’s not how the British establishment saw it. The British establishment saw it as weakness and vulnerability. They were always going to see the No vote as the opportunity to take advantage, and that’s precisely what they’ve done. This is what contempt looks like.

Enough of this farce.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/06/2018 13:40

Feel sick to my stomach about what's happening in WM at the moment. Not just Brexit but the power grab in general. The hate. The duplicity. Our powerlessness as citizens and voters.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/06/2018 13:43

So let me get this right TM has said :

"I cannot countenance Parliament being able to overturn the will of the British people"

But overturning promises made to the Scottish people can be countenanced?

DGRossetti · 13/06/2018 13:46

But overturning promises made to the Scottish people can be countenanced?

British when they win, Scottish when they lose ....

user1486062886 · 13/06/2018 13:46

DGRossetti So you think Scotland would hold its own on its own, the same as Brexit look at the implications of a break away,
Would EU let them join ( Dont meet the rules)
What currency would they use ?
People the Scottish people who work here, may have to leave if nothing could be agreed

woman11017 · 13/06/2018 13:48

Is SNP walk out the start of the real constitutional crisis? (I need the Soap gif DGR Grin)

woman11017 · 13/06/2018 13:50

Scotland's not an english colony user remember. Smile

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 13/06/2018 13:50

British when they win, Scottish when they lose ....
Sadly as its ever been. Also see Welsh and Irish.

lettuceWrap · 13/06/2018 13:58

Would the Eu let us join- probably.
But it’s no longer, as we were told repeatedly at Indyref1 “vote for the union and you get to stay in Europe, vote independence and you’ll get kicked out of Europe”... we are being dragged out of Europe already, and against the wishes of the majority of Scottish voters!

DGRossetti · 13/06/2018 14:01

DGRossetti So you think Scotland would hold its own on its own, the same as Brexit look at the implications of a break away

I think it was established a long time ago, it matters not a jot what I think, so no point in wasting electricity

(btw my long post was quoting the article linked. You need a lot of patience to cope with MNs quirky ways).

EmilyAlice · 13/06/2018 14:02

That is what was worrying me Red. As far as I can see nothing is predicted to be that close, but still.

lettuceWrap · 13/06/2018 14:04

Which currency would we use- personally I’m not too hung up about what form the money in my pocket takes. In the previous referendum I thought too many people were hung up on Scotland continuing to use the £.

woman11017 · 13/06/2018 14:07

Starmer is horrendous.

DGRossetti · 13/06/2018 14:09

Which currency would we use- personally I’m not too hung up about what form the money in my pocket takes. In the previous referendum I thought too many people were hung up on Scotland continuing to use the £.

the last currency anyone in their right mind would want now is the £. In fact I suspect you'd have the reverse argument ... ditching the £ as a plus for independence.

RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:10

Keith Clarke just intervened on Keir Starmer and pointed out that the most significant thing in yesterday's debate and votes which EVERYONE has missed in all the other drama was that yesterday, parliament made a legally biding vote to make sure that there was no border in the Irish Sea so what happens in NI also happens in Dover.

This means because of international agreements ALREADY made that we will have to ALL stay in the customs union or the government will be breaking BOTH international law but also British law.

Keir Starmer agreed this was true.

Question: Have the ERG Brexiteers worked this out yet??? It would tend to suggest that the Trade Bill later this month, will have to also say this. If it contradicts this, surely this would be a problem.

Question: If we have legally bound ourselves to this within UK law, what happens if the EU refuse to do this as part of the deal? Is that automatic No Deal Or does that mean by default, that in line with our constitutional requirements, that May would be legally obliged to come back to parliament to overturn this legally biding agreement?

Question: Would the government table an amendment of that nature, KNOWING that this contradiction was possible and that the EU would not ultimately agree to this?

If you wanted to stay in the customs union and were prepared to take any requirements the EU needed to ensure that wouldn't be an issue. If you DIDN'T want to stay in the customs union or were going to be difficult about the requirements the EU would need, then you'd be bloody stupid to agree to that.

Except we have May apparently in the former scenario with Davis - who is head of the Brexit Department - in the later scenario.

How is that even fucking possible?

Unless Davis is just posturing that he wants to leave the customs union and has already accepted privately we will stay or he's as thick as pig shit, and isn't up to being head of Brexit negotiations and he's already been royally stitched up with this. (Or Both).

For all the ERG noises being made, the suggestion here, is that to all intents and purposes, that us staying in the customs union was enshrined into British law yesterday and the EU will be well aware of this and all further negotiations will stem from this, otherwise we are headed for something very messy indeed which could 'break parliament' in someway if didn't go along with it.

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:14

Simple version of that:

Have the ERG been 'lawyered' over the custom union?

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:17

Anna Soubry MP @Anna_Soubry
For the avoidance of doubt the PM said yesterday that clause c of Dominic Grieves amendment would be discussed as part of the new amendment to be tabled in the Lords. If the PM goes back on that there will be no agreed amendment that I can support #sortitplease

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:18

Jessica Elgot @jessicaelgot
A lot of new trouble brewing with the Tory rebels. Number 10 says it's a "fair assessment" to say that Clause C is not up for discussion. That's not what MPs like @sarahwollaston @heidiallen75 thought. They thought that was the topic for discussion.

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:19

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
No10 confirms that part C of the Grieve amendment (bear with me here), which would see parliament step in to prevent a no deal Brexit, has been rejected by the Government. That's not what the rebels believed after speaking to the PM. More trouble looming.

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:20

There is a customs union vote later today...

...it could be close.

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:20

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
PM’s spokesperson: “fair assessment” that Grieve’s Clause C is “not up for discussion” - which is not what @sarahwollaston was telling me at exactly the same time...

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:22

Brexit in one tweet:

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
"The government has been very clear that it has been crystal clear in being absolutely clear about the need for complete clarity," a minister said today.

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RedToothBrush · 13/06/2018 14:26

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
Cake in Europe, fudge at home.

The story of Brexit.

If only we can have chocolate fudge cake.

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woman11017 · 13/06/2018 14:27

@davidallengreen
If one was a cynical person....

...one would think Grieve and others have set May up in a trap...

...for they know she may not be able to keep her word...

...and if she breaks her word...

...they will never be able to be bought off with assurances again.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/06/2018 14:34

RTB-If only we can have chocolate fudge cake.
*
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Reminds me of the Quentin Blake book " We all join in".

Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'