The Brexit Arms

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Ever closer to Brexit! 🥂 🍻 🍾

Remainers are welcome, as ever.

But!

If you just want to abuse Brexiteers, then start your own thread.

This is a pub thread, not an interrogate-a-Brexiteer thread

We have more in common etc, even if Brexit divides us.

It's easy to hold 27 together when they are on the take....... we want more money ect ....
Now in this round all of them stand to have lost trade opportunities. Your kidding yourself if you think they are all on the same page this time...why do you think they refused to discussion on trade till this near the end...?

Talk to trees - thank you, genuinely very interesting. I think I would just note that if this aspiration is only symbolic why did Cameron seek to reform it as part of his (failed) renegotiation efforts? Ie if it’s that unimportant why did he feel the need to specifically address it?

“On the take?” imagine having to spend 1.5 billion to cobble together a working majority

Ghost of true enough - corbyn wouldn’t need to buy his political support - he gets his free from the ira and hizbollah!

Cameron was trying to appease a handful of Tory backbenchers. His words aren’t exactly credible given he said he’d trigger a50 straight away and then legged it so someone else could clear up the shit.

Yep. Wonder how much Germany is paying.
It just shows as said before who do we vote for when there is no party who is in touch with is electerate.

Ghost of - my comment was addressed to talk to trees - you have little to add I think

Given the Cambridge analytica revelations and alleged Russian interference I really wouldn’t be crowing about political support. Afterall you wouldn’t want foreigners meddling in democratic elections of the UK would you?

Talk that summary on "ever closer union" very neatly sums up a lot of the issues with the debate on whether the UK ever "lost" sovereignty. When it suits the EU Treaties are woolly words and concepts with little practical effect otoh but otoh there can be absolutely no compromise on the terms of the SM/CU because the EU is simply enforcing the prescribed highly legalistic definitive text.

Also GV, MB, JCJ, and Jupiter all seem to be taking a slightly different view from Full Fact.

This was one of the glaring problems of DC's renegotiation. As the UK was explicitly derogating from the rest it would have been a "vassal State" within the EU which is even worse that a "vassal State" outside with the ability to walk away at the drop of a hat - not after 4 years of tortuous wrangling.

Hey, yes it is interesting. I didn’t copy the whole article - in its entirety here: fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/ (don’t know how to link )

Cameron was trying to be too clever. In an attempt to be all things to all men; the all conquering hero, sticking up for poor old down trodden Blighty, he dropped a massive bollock & gave the relatively small but noisy eurosceptics a larger platform. I expect I’ll be shot down in flames but - I believe DC had genuinely honerable intentions but his naive arrogance and unwillingness to listen to experts (yes, him too) has led to this mahoosive clusterfuck.

D.C. was a fool of the worst order....He was so sure he was so important.... that he could get what he wanted..then that in getting nothing he could spin it to win it...
Ever more than the result.... the biggest WTF moment was when he actually said the reforendum was happening....

Talk to trees - thanks for the link wasn’t aware of the site and it looks as impartial as u could expect in terms of funding sources.

I think I would just say it wasn’t just Tory backbenchers that needed appeasing over that aspect of eu aspiration for the future.

I would agree with how about - words matter and the eu can’t claim some are less important than others if it is politically expedient to do so.

If ever closer union is just semantics why don’t the eu simply erase that from the text of the eu treaties?

Probably because leavers would just find something else to whinge about.

Do the rest of the words in the EU treaties that qualify 'closer union' not count in your reading of the treaties' sentences Hey? Much like ignoring our own Govt's conclusion, post the enacting of Art 50 that the UK had never lost sovereignty to the EU as claimed in the pre-Referendum vote leave canvassing.

He had promised a referendum (in an attempt to pinch UKIP voters) so he had to hold one. Unfortunately it was rushed and poorly executed.

He also promised 30 hours free childcare (alongside austerity and increased minimum wage) - which the Tories are having to try to implement - another fuckup of massive proportions.

I’m not sure how the Tories have managed to maintain support while being so obviously incompetent. Perhaps support for Brexit has helped them? Previously core Labour voters have switched sides and Labour is more of a middle class idealist party now? Just idle musings - probably way off the mark - but, hey, (not hey), it’s a pub

I agree - words are very important - and I particularly like the sentiment behind these:

“ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”,

I voted Tory...But as you said it's not ideal... Labour scares me... So many promises and the cost would be eye watering.... what happens when it doesn't work and the tory's get back in and have too balance the books...well try too as that doesn't seem to be happening despite austerity measures...
We saw Brexit as a way to force major changes... as the past ways were not working.

Talk to trees - I am a Tory but I would agree I fear the party is running out of steam. In normal times I would muse that it’s that time in the electoral cycle for labour to have a go.

But - simply put - Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott and John mcdonell are not fit to govern. They have neither the ability to reach political consensus or apply sufficient intellectual rigour. Furthermore, their political affiliation with Some very dubious organisations internationally would ruin our credibility on the world stage. Their approach to Russia over the poisoning is exhibit a - even the guardian doesn’t dispute Russia is almost certainly responsible.

A labour government (as currently led) allied with the freedom Brexit will bring would be disastrous for this country. That is the only scenario in which I might live to regret my leave vote.

Right you voted Tory because Labour and finances scare you despite by your own admission austerity is failing. So now brexit at a cost of at least 40 million you hope will lead to prosperity. All this despite evidence showing the 2008 collapse was a global problem, austerity doesn’t work and Brexit will make us poorer. Facts, evidence screw that!

Hey, I completely agree re current state of the Parliamentary Labour Party. It saddens me immensely.

Talk to trees - agree completely. I think when in government there comes a time when parties simply run out of oomph.

But labour are pursuing an agenda of niche protest party politics. Mondeo man ain’t going to vote for that.

Ghost of will shortly appear to tell me that in the last election at least some mondeo men must have voted labour. That is true, but what is also true is that labour have lost momentum (pardon the pun) and initiative since then. Issues like Russia and anti semitism will not play well with the shires. Outside Islington, few care about places like Palestine. Labour begin to look remote and irresponsible. The last election was peak corbyn and that is a real problem for labour and the country at large.

What consensus have the Tories reached? They are engaged in civil war over Brexit, they have divided the country. Strong and stable?

They sell arms to dubious nations such as Saudi. May tried to look strong over Salisbury poisioning, doesn’t she and particularly boris look silly given the porton down findings?

Ghost of - why and how is austerity failing? That sounds like a momentum meeting soundbite.

At a macro economic level are you sure that is the case?

Record numbers reliant on food banks, wage stagnation, gap between rich and poor ever rising. But you’re not really interested are you? You peddle debunked Brexit slogans and anti corbyn tabloid bollocks.

Ghost of - do you seriously not think Russia committed a state sanctioned assassination on uk soil?

If you read up on the issue portion down is simply one of several intelligence agencies who will construct a picture of what occurred. On its own it is not definitive.

Convincing multiple countries to expel Russian diplomats would have required a compelling overall intelligence analysis.