The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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Ever closer to Brexit! 🥂 🍻 🍾

Remainers are welcome, as ever.

But!

If you just want to abuse Brexiteers, then start your own thread.

This is a pub thread, not an interrogate-a-Brexiteer thread

We have more in common etc, even if Brexit divides us.

How about a devolved London region? I am sure those who live/work in that region would see that as a positive outcome of Brexit, if they are as shallow as the Brexiteers imply. So London can keep all that tax revenue for the metropolitan elite rather than accepting that contributing to the national 'tax' pot then turned in to health/education/social care etc is part of being one nation from Falmouth to Lincoln to Dunfermline to Merthyr to Coleraine.

If ever there was a part of the uk that needed floating offshore it is London...
What a jolly good idea.

If David Lammy is correct that the gang culture is being fuelled by E European drug

I don't have a particularly politically correct response. Perhaps he is just looking for a scapegoat to divert attention from black gang culture. I have yet to see one London knife/gun crime report involving any Europeans.

If London gets to swan off to warmer climes then I demand home rule for Yorkshire, oh and better weather

Actually I would settle for better weather , but then I understand the need for compromise

BTW BBC has become a disgusting pro-Brexit government propaganda tube, like a proper banana republic state TV. What an utter shithole this country has become under these Tories.

I agree wrt News coverage London, but they still do some great programmes , especially on the Radio.

Londonmum8 - what’s the alternative to the tories - saint Jeremy bloody corbyn of Islington?

There isn't a decent alternative to the Tories, but that doesn't make the Tories okay, now does it?
Jeremy might be an arse, but not as much of an arse as IDS, JRM, Boris 'Piccaninnies' Johnson, TM, Gove, or the incompetent David Davis.
A lot of us literally have no-one to vote for, but lack of faith in the opposition isn't going to make us run out and vote Tory out of desperation.

The problem is the Conservative party is no longer what it once was, the party for business ? for the economy ? nothing is safe in their hands anymore. The Labour party have apparently wandered off into the dense woodland of the far left without a compass. Both parties are aligned when it comes to Brexit. The Liberal Democrats appear to be the only party asking the sensible questions wrt the outcome of the referendum, but they have been so soundly vilified for their excursion into coalition politics that I think they will struggle to gain a foothold. Saying that, the LD's have always been rather good at grassroots politics so we may see a resurgence in the local elections in May ?

Faith thank you for responding to my question about a time limited SM/CU solution on the previous thread. I am intrigued that you voted for something knowing that you don't trust those in power to implement it. Interesting isn't it that coming from both sides of the argument, we have a joint distrust of the current Government , you because you are concerned they are going to go too soft and me because I am concerned at how the UK will be effected by their incompetence.

Going back to the local elections in May , can I ask everyone if they vote for party or person in these elections ?

1000 sure start centres have closed since 2010. That’ll be poorer areas and families affected. I have no idea why brexiteers think the Tories will miraculously make life better for ordinary people post Brexit. Bonkers, absolutely bonkers.

Ghost of - ah yes sure start - or government intervention where it isn’t needed in society. I lament the loss alongside orchestras.

The National Evaluation of Sure Start is ongoing. Initial research findings from NESS, published in 2005, suggested the impact of SSLPs was not as great as had been hoped.[4]

Frumpety - spot on analysis

Hey, do poorer areas need intervention or not? I thought that was the point of Brexit?

Going back to the local elections in May , can I ask everyone if they vote for party or person in these elections?

I vote for a particular candidate usually, as he's an excellent, very active worker on behalf of our ward and goes to a lot of trouble canvassing, doing grassroots work etc., unlike our local constituency MP, who languishes in his very safe seat and does the square root of fuck all.

I think it's a very sad thing for democracy that so many citizens feel no party even gets close to representing their views leaving them with nowhere to place their vote - it's more or less a form of disenfranchisement.

The point of Brexit is the restoration of (full) national sovereignty and an escape from the eu obsession with ‘ever greater political union’ into the future. You and other posters will tell me we always had the former anyway - I refute that.

Brexit is a strategic national decision. Meanwhile Poorer people in areas outside of those overwhelmed by immigration probably care not a jot who ‘rules’ them so long as the welfare state and tax credit regime rolls on unchecked.

I hate to break the news to you but sovereignty was never lost.

There is nothing strategic about Brexit particularly given nobody has a clue what to do about NI, least of all leavers.

Tax credits and the welfare state are the responsibility of the UK government not the EU. Poorer people are the ones reliant on tax credits and the welfare state. How confused you are.

LOL at 'I refute that'. Even the government admitted we always has sovereignty, which included being able to do something about levels of migration.
As for the tax credit comment, it's not clear whether you think the country needs to move immediately to a proper living wage, so people don't need to claim these and so the government is not propping up businesses by effectively paying part of their wage bill, or whether we should just let families starve. The latter I suspect, but it's hard to see past the sloganeering.

Ghost of - try reading my post properly - I am aware of both the source and policy origin of welfare payments and tax credits thank you. But a nice attempt to deliberately conflate and confuse on your part yet again.

My definition of full uk sovereignty is affairs of state being decided upon in London. That is not currently the case with trade (abdicated to Brussels) or law (increasingly abdicated to brussels). ‘Ever closer union’ in coming years would mean that areas like defence and diplomacy would also start to move under a Brussels lead in time. The eu is entirely honest and open about such political aspirations. Yet you tell me sovereignty isn’t a problem.

The real truth is that you (and other ‘sovereignty deniers’) really actually know all this but don’t care about it. The reason you don’t care is that you hold a metropolitan internationalist world view where you see concepts like ‘sovereignty’ as quaint and old fashioned.

But they are important nonetheless - because the integrity of Britain as a self contained nation state is important. Even the politically disenfranchised (remember the referendum had a comparatively high turn out) who voted in their millions to leave could see that to be true.

The eu vote was about ‘who decides’ now and in the future. The outcome was rightly ‘we do’

The sovereign government of the UK stated in its own Brexit white paper that sovereignty was never lost. Only brexiteers think otherwise, again denying evidence presented to them.

The reason you don’t care is that you hold a metropolitan internationalist world view where you see concepts like ‘sovereignty’ as quaint and old fashioned.

Loving the hyperbole. This is beginning to read more and more like a spoof. Well done, Heydug. Have you thought of writing for the Express?

Two fingers - re sovereignty - you and ghost of are quick to kick the government over most things yet when a white paper supporting your view is released the government immediately becomes some kind of omnipotent entity. I am sceptical of official government papers on Brexit - because I don’t feel the government body (in its entirety - not just the party of government) is impartial in the Brexit debate. They wanted us to stay.

Sovereignty has many angles - and perception is also as important as any other.

Ultimately if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

We (brexiters) will ultimately get a fudge as the end result. But that’s ok - as I said in the now closed thread, the key is that the comfortable position we had (rebates et al) is gone. As a nation we were never really enamoured of the eu - going forward we will be even less so and it is the long term trajectory that counts.

perception is also as important as any other
Yeah, fuck facts. Perception rules!

Neither of you have commented on the eu and it’s ‘ever closer political union’ intent.

So, given it was the remain vote that lost, let’s pin you down for a change: how does a stated eu aim of ever closer political union tally with our continued sovereignty as an independent state?

Right so you wanted to take back control but you don’t even trust your own government anyway?

The UK is losing its comfortable (your word) position in the biggest trading block in the world to become poorer because brexiteers have “perceptions” about sovereignty.