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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
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FirstHouseThenStreet · 28/03/2018 14:11

From that article
One said his presence at the demonstration was a sign he is critical of those “exercising freedom of speech in criticising Zionism”.

WTAF? Momentum aren't even trying to conceal their anti-Semitism. What makes them so cocky?

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 14:20

Some thoughts on three posts above...

Even Radio 4 affords less respect to the intelligence and attention span of its audience than I did with my least able and worst behaved Y9 classes,and

It's just bloody condescending and gives lazy sods an excuse to disengage. Of course all these things are technical and indeed complex, but that's no excuse for patting people on the head and telling them not to worry their pretty little heads about it, we'll do it for you (but won't let on what we're doing). It's so maddening.. and

Kirsty Wark looked at Wylie with pity as though he was a complete fantasist. I worry that's how more voters will perceive it - just too far fetched to have happened in Blighty.

It all comes back to the same point really doesn't it? The way we live now with FB, texting, memes, twitter, snapchat...perhaps even what we are doing now on MN ? dumbs everything down.(Maybe not on this thread.) The dumbing down has created an environment where the mess we are in can have happened.

Everything is so condensed that it enables politicians and companies like the SCL group to manipulate the public.Many people only delve into things in 30 character soundbites. Everything is so over simplified .

So even when Wylie is warning us what has happened, he isn't believed as it is all so complex you need to really set time aside and make an effort to understand it.That investigating and thinking skill has been wiped out in many people as they scroll across their smart phones.

Whilst you can blame the Trump cult, Leave politicians and Nix and his cronies -and I do blame them- technological advancement has a share of the blame too.

Its all about undermining intellectual standards, trivialising really important stuff ( like in that absurd BBC video) and diminishing critical thought.

I just quickly investigated philosophical and sociological writing about dumbing down.I haven't done it in depth of course, so I'm dumbed down too, but apparently Pierre Bourdieu wrote about how when the ruling classes dumb things down then this leads to the devaluation of the cultural capital of the subordinate social classes and limitation on social mobility.

There are other cultural theorists like Bourdieu who have written about this.For example the refinements in measuring TV approval ratings and audience size has increased the incentive for the media to diminish intellectual complexity at the expense of factual accuracy and rationality. So commercial television started the process of the dumbing down of communications, and tablets and smart phones seem to have continued that downward trend.

It is all very depressing. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World deals with these concepts.I have it, but actually I found it really difficult to read, probably as a result of being dumbed down myself
.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 14:33

I just quickly investigated philosophical and sociological writing about dumbing down.I haven't done it in depth of course, so I'm dumbed down too, but apparently Pierre Bourdieu wrote about how when the ruling classes dumb things down then this leads to the devaluation of the cultural capital of the subordinate social classes and limitation on social mobility.

But in England, it's hardly new. I note that Scotland, by contrast has always culturally seemed to value, nurture and celebrate knowledge and learning which may explain the (apparant Hmm) over representation of Scots in politics, science, medicine and engineering.

"Boffin" is as much an insult as a compliment (cf "Clever clogs" et al).

Many years ago a customer of my DFs had a little girl whose IQ must have been off the scale - she could read at 3 (apparently she was able to go through the phone directory and match the numbers to the push dial and call people up saying "Hello, I'm xxxxxx" ) and was enjoying Lewis Carroll at 5. However as soon as she hit school, she quickly learned to dumb down so as not to be bullied Sad.

One of my friends at school (who happened to be an immigrant, courtesy of Idi Amin) had a similar experience, but was able to tough it out (with a little help from his friends) and got unconditional offers at Cambridge and Oxford (which he declined, in order to stay with family).

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 14:37

Interesting, so an English predisposition and receptiveness to being dumbed down?

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 14:48

Interesting, so an English predisposition and receptiveness to being dumbed down?

I dunno. But I do know that engineers are highly respected in Germany ...

It may be that the inbuilt cultural disdain of intellectuals in English society is some sort of weird hangover from being subjugated by a Norman elite for centuries ? Added to a post reformation dislike of Catholicism and it's learning ?

Also, it's not necessarily a bad thing ... a healthy scepticism of experts makes it harder for people to corrupt science for evil ends (an awful lot of Nazi anti-semitism was "scientifically" proven ....). But then you have the MMR debacle Sad.

The older I get, the more "everything in moderation" applies more and more.

Ultimately, everything is a pendulum ... we had it lucky when it swang our way, while others were frustrated. Now they are having it lucky, and we have to be frustrated.

I find myself mischievously wondering if Abe Lincoln was misquoted ...

enochroot · 28/03/2018 14:49

www.politics.co.uk/reference/public-libraries

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 14:55

When one of the greatest minds of the 20th century speaks, it costs nothing to listen.

As a species, we owe this man a debt we can only repay by not fucking our planet up.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 14:56

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-landmark-for-justice-in-worboys-release-ruling-a3801046.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

The Tory Havering leaflet story makes the Evening Standard editorial. Along with the Worboys story.

OP posts:
RoxyRing · 28/03/2018 15:04

.

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 15:18

Blimey that's terrifyingly prophetic DGR and exactly what the sequence of people's insights earlier today made me think.

The solution lies in education doesn't it, but that's being starved too.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 15:21

After Galileo, Copernicus ...

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/copernicus-project-threat-by-brussels-8srtzx6hn

Still, I thought Brexit was all about kicking Johnny Foreigner out, so we can start with these two ...

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 15:23

It may be that the inbuilt cultural disdain of intellectuals in English society is some sort of weird hangover from being subjugated by a Norman elite for centuries

Its also class.

And a north / south divide.

I find it weird being northern and most definitely middle class. I've never earnt more than minimum wage (why is a long story) and ive worked with proper pie eaters. Its not so much a distain for intellect or academics but more of a tribal identity. I think you can sum it well in how many different accents there are in the Manchester area. A local will know which particular town you are from an accent. To a southerner though, they all sound the same.

To a local, if you don't know stuff like that, you are ignorant. You might know lots about the world, but you don't know local history and knowledge. Everyone knows which pie is the best and knows the name of their nearest rival brand. They know the social history of a place, which is rather more relevant to their lives than taught history. Hence why nationalism resonates more. In some senses its like forgotten black history.

For various reasons I feel caught between the middle class moving up from London now, who though equity are almost a class above the northern middle class now and more traditional working class. I am definitely middle class but at times I get the northern working class mentality much better than the southern middle class one.

At the same time I've had southern 'friends' refuse to visit because theres 'nothing up there' or because they think its rough. (One lovely individual said he wouldn't visit even if I lived in a gated community because its rough). He's a tosser, who ive told to do one before but sadly he's part of a circle of DH's uni friends.

Then there's stuff like cheese.

There was a much publicised thing about how bbc workers were refusing to move north because there were no artisan cheese shops in manchester. You might think this is bollocks, but a proposed waitrose store at salford quays ended up being replaced by a rather swanky Booths supermarket. Who sell lots of local cheese. (Not artisan, local to northerners. Pride in local produce and quality not the need for pretentiously getting a nicely branded one).

Its not a one way thing. There are plenty of educated people who really do look down their noses at the 'uneducated' or northern.

In a lot of ways its just a reflection of different values clashing with each other.

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DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 15:23

Blimey that's terrifyingly prophetic DGR

coupled with :

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 15:40

Alex Andreou
‏*@sturdyAlex*
PM on Cambridge Analytica scandal and allegations of rule breaking by the Leave campaign: “If anyone is suggesting these claims call into question the referendum, I say to them that the referendum was held, the vote was taken and we will be delivering on it.” #PMQs #Brexit

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 15:44

BBC Feedback
‏*@BBCR4Feedback*
#BBCFeedback has a Brexit special coming up - what do you think about how Brexit has been dealt with on BBC Radio?

twitter.com/BBCR4Feedback/status/978578442072612864

The comments under this reflect the views of this thread, encouragingly.

SusanWalker · 28/03/2018 15:44

TM could find a smoking gun covered in fingerprints next to the corpse of the referendum and still say it was the will of the people.

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 16:13

So the Corbynites want to expel a black man for attending an anti-racism march
Wrong kind of anti racism, comrades.
Just like there's the wrong kind of feminism. ( as in all of it)
And obviously the wrong kind of international economic and political alliance based on ECHR.
Hmm

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 16:27

A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

Very interesting.So where are we in this cycle?

TheElementsSong · 28/03/2018 16:27

Chillingly appropriate quotes DG!

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 16:30

these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.

With this cycle too...are we at selfishness or dependence? I'm just worried that bondage is around the corner so to speak.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 16:42

Very interesting.So where are we in this cycle?

With this cycle too...are we at selfishness or dependence?

I suspect that these suggestions need to be viewed through the prism of the culture of England/Britain. It's telling how there are some things embedded deep in our "cultural DNA" which are quite different to other - European - cultures. And it's probably things we aren't even aware of (although, ironically, the bastard offspring if immigrants such as yours truly have more awareness, simply from hearing our foreign parents take on things).

Policeman not carrying guns, for example.

The ability to call yourself WTF you like without so much as a postcard (notice how this is being attacked. You'll miss it when it's gone).

The idea that anyone can own property, and buy and sell it without needing a court appearance and judges permission (yes, really !).

The low keyness of the Queen and flags in every single official building (cf the US which has photos of the president everywhere)

So English "dependence" may look different to French "dependence".

Often watching TV, my DF would express surprise that people could get up to all sorts of behaviour in Britain ... I don't think to this day he grasps the idea that anything not illegal is allowed (well, until ASBOs) ... his mindset is more "it's only allowed if it's permitted" ... a la Napoleon.

There's a certain delicious irony in believing that a lot of Brexiteers would be a lot happier living in France than England.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 17:04

Patrick Wintour
‏*@patrickwintour*
Labour’s @EmilyThornberry predicts UK and EU by Autumn will only be able to agree a “blah blah blah divorce “ without any proper decisions made. But she says this divorce probably will meet Labour’s 6 tests, and so Brexit vote will pass. #Chatham House

George Eaton
‏*@georgeeaton*
More George Eaton Retweeted Patrick Wintour
This is significant: Emily Thornberry suggests Labour will likely vote for the Brexit deal and so it will easily pass.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 17:08

I am so much more angry with Labour than I am with the Conservatives, and know that it's probably not fair to be but ffs, why are gaily waving Brexit through? This is all so wearying.

Icantreachthepretzels · 28/03/2018 17:16

How can a blah blah divorce - with no proper decisions pass those tests? Unless a pretty big decision is made re the single market then that's 2 and subsequently 6 blown out of the water. How can they 'ensure' anything if no proper decisions have been made? surely for future collaboration/ migration and protection of rights to be 'ensured' this stuff will need to have been hammered out to within an inch of its life?

Why are labour being so crap? Even if they have every intention of voting brexit through - why on earth are they telling TM this with a year to go meaning she can rest on her laurels and achieve nothing because the opposition have already promised not to bother opposing? They should be nipping at her heels every day for the next year - regardless of what they will eventually do.

And why are Thornberry and Starmer coming out with what are in essence pro brexit statements just as all the CA stuff starts blowing up? now is the time to stick the boot in - not give the govt an easy ride!

I'm so annoyed. My tory mp so nearly lost his seat in 2017 - in order to get rid of him next time I have to vote labour - but they're making it very hard for me to want to.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 17:24

Following on from another thread title ... if Remain had won, would both Tory and Labour be backing that ?

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