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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 10:09

Otto English @ ottoenglish
Genuinely a bit shocked to see Jacob Rees-Mogg refer to the "less well off" in our "indigenous communities." He means "white" doesn't he - because if he'd meant "poorer people" in general he could have just said it.

Either that or he's underlining the fact that he's based his view of British history on a Ladybird narrative in which everyone on the islands is a descendant of Beaker people in coracles

It's straight out of the facsist dog whistle book: "The indigenous people of this island are the English, the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish … We are the aborigines here" - Nick Griffin 2010 #reesmogg

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Cailleach1 · 28/03/2018 10:17

Anyone see the Estonian president Kersti Kaljulaid on the news yesterday. Interview about Russia and security.

I reckon the gov't must be using the security issue as leverage to try to break the EU solidarity. Hundreds of British personnel have been sent to the region under NATO. Kersti Kaljulaid explicitly stated in the interview that the EU can differentiate between the two issues. Of common security wrt Russia and the issue of the NI/Irish border. I'd say there is backroom pressure and telephone calls from London all the while. Certainly to the nervous Baltics.

Of course May made the implied threat in her long awaited, but ill thought out letter notifying the a50.

SusanWalker · 28/03/2018 10:25

I find Rees-Mogg the scariest of them all. There's just something about him that gives me chills. I would love for him to be caught up in the CA scandal.

I am sure the CA campaigns worked. I have seen brexiteers on other sites saying it didn't effect them, whilst talking about the corrupt, unelected EUSSR. Referring to London as Londonistan. Saying all MPs are on the EU gravy train. They all use the same phrases. And yet they still believe they weren't brainwashed.

The references to us being a Christian country is another. Despite the fact that church attendance is on the whole very low.

I think the far right is on the rise in this country. It's frightening. More than frightening. The trouble is brexit is going to make it worse. More austerity, more poverty. More mutterings about immigrants getting free houses and the foreign aid budget. Well not even mutterings any more.

I never thought I'd see my country like this. When you think of cool britannia and the Olympics. It's like we're living in a different country.

SusanWalker · 28/03/2018 10:33

From the Huff Post

Jacob Rees-Mogg dubbed Remainers as “cave dwellers” today as he warned Theresa May she will be ousted as PM if she compromises any further on Brexit.

The Conservative backbencher made the threat as he hit out at the Government for giving way on “every red line” during the transition period, agreed between the UK and EU in Brussels last week.

Rees-Mogg, chairman of the influential group of Tory Brexiteers known as the European Research Group, cited concessions over UK fishing rights and free movement of people during the 21 month period as examples of where May had given in to Brussels.

In a speech to mark one year until the UK officially leaves the EU, Rees-Mogg claimed those wanting to stop Brexit would damage the UK’s collective psyche in a way not seen since the Suez crisis of 1956.

Speaking in Central London, Rees-Mogg said: I know that I am sometimes teased for being the ‘Honourable Member for the 18th Century’, but it is a badge I wear with pride because it was in the 18th Century that the seeds of our greatness, sown long before in our distinguished history, sown conceivably by Alfred the Great, began to grow and to flourish in a way that led to our extended period of good fortune and greatness.

“But in spite of this admiration and, indeed, love for our Nation’s history, today I want to be, and this may be an effort for me, the Honourable Member for the 21st Century – a century that will see our country regain its independence and stride out once more, into a new age of global trade and cooperation.

“It has taken us some time to rediscover the opportunities of a truly global Britain and a few cave dwellers still want to stop the process, but with 367 days to go the United Kingdom will be free.”

When asked about the transition deal, Rees-Mogg said: “Let’s be frank about it, all the red lines have gone in the transition period. There isn’t a red line left in that, and the concern is will the red lines be there in the final withdrawal agreement.

“I’m sure the Prime Minister knows her history, and I’m sure that she knows how Robert Peel got the repeal of the Corn Laws through. No Conservative leader would ever wish to get through so major a piece of legislation again on the back of opposition votes, and I think the Government will stick its red lines because that is the political reality.”

Peel quit as Conservative Prime Minister in 1846 after forcing through repeal of the protectionist Corn Laws in the face of opposition from many in his own party.

Rees-Mogg was asked if he would “commit to standing for the Tory leadership” in order to ensure the UK left the EU’s customs union, common fisheries policy and jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice after Brexit.

He replied: “No, I won’t make any such commitment, I’m fully supporting Mrs May. I’m sure she won’t break our red lines.”

Eloise Todd from anti-Brexit campaign group Best For Britain accused Rees-Mogg of not taking the issue seriously enough.

She said: “Jacob Rees-Mogg calling anyone a ‘cave dweller’ shows what a joke all of this is to those political elites egging on Brexit.

“Jacob should be take a far more serious approach to the very serious concerns people have about the damage caused by Brexit. Why shouldn’t people be angry at the prospect of higher food prices, fewer jobs and spending being diverted from hospitals and schools to fund Brexit departments?

“The good news is we still have a year to figure out whether all of this pain is really worth it.”

Cailleach1 · 28/03/2018 10:43

I've heard someone use the term 'post Protestant' country. Of course, it was 'post Catholic' before that. In terms of Christianity.

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 10:43

Sorry to lower the tone:

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 10:58

Grin love it woman

Jo Maugham QC
‏*@JolyonMaugham*
Labour's approach to Brexit - tendentious assertion riding bareback on red unicorns - now galloping through the Upper Chamber too.

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/opinion/house-lords/93983/baroness-hayter-we-should-aim-nothing-short

Dianne must know very well what rights UK citizens will get as a matter of political negotiation post Brexit - they're set out in the draft withdrawal agreement.
Dianne must know that a former Vice President of the NL supreme court - sitting in a judicial capacity - has said it is reasonably arguable that EU citizenship rights don't "melt away" if the UK departs.
Dianne must know that there is a push in Strasbourg for a type of associate citizenship to be offered to UK citizens.
Dianne must know that the situation of UK citizens who have had and are now losing EU citizenship is not remotely akin to the situation of Commonwealth citizens who have never had a UK passport.
So I just don't understand why Labour peddles this disingenuous nonsense. It's hard to avoid the conclusion they want Brexit just like the Tories do - just with added virtue signalling.

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 11:13

Labour's approach to Brexit

An opportune time to reflect on Labour's 2017 six step test...

Keir Starmer: Labour has six tests for Brexit – if they’re not met we won’t back the final deal in parliament 27TH MARCH, 2017.

“Failure to meet the tests I have set out today will of course affect how Labour votes in the house of commons.”

“The prime minister should be under no illusion that Labour will not support a deal that fails to reflect ...the six tests I have set out today.”

Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

  1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?
  1. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
  1. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
  1. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?
  1. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?
  1. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 11:21

So I just don't understand why Labour peddles this disingenuous nonsense. It's hard to avoid the conclusion they want Brexit just like the Tories do - just with added virtue signalling.

From the exchanges I've had (where they respond) with local Laborites, it seems there's a nasty condesencion from the top that the rank and file will just do as they are told ... not dissimilar to the way JRM expects all to bow before him.

Surely there must be a point when someone, somewhere, wakes up and says Who the fuck is Jacob Rees-Mogg ?

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 11:42

I am thinking that those six tests are no longer Labour policy just 12 months later.

By the government's own assessments 2 and 6 are not going to be met by leaving . So don't see how Labour can say that they will be?

lonelyplanetmum · 28/03/2018 11:52

Also
Has anyone seen this?

What age group is it meant for ?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43492937

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 12:09

If Labour want exactly the same rights as now wrt trade, that means SM and a Customs arrangement,
definitely a BINO, bit what JC seems to want

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 12:09

not what JC seems to want

Hasenstein · 28/03/2018 12:17

Has anyone seen this?

What age group is it meant for ?

That's exactly what I thought when I saw it. I also found it irritating that the very slanted headline was "Why is Brexit taking sooo long". No wonder you constantly hear people saying they're bored with it now and we should just "crack on", as if they are perfectly willing to abrogate all responsibility because, you know, it's sooo boring. Kind of fing.

As you say, one has to question either the target age group or the BBC's condescending attitude that people can only cope with short-attention span soundbites and don't need or can't cope with any further explanation of the issues. This may be true in some cases, but there is no need for this kind of infantilisation.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 12:19

My additional worries for the future:

The hard right alliance of billionaire oligarchs & psy-ops firms seem to have broken the law on the EU referendum
and may have changed the result

  • this was feasible because the country was split so evenly
and there are no adequate institutional safeguards against this new form of election manipulation Did Remain bring a knife to a gunfight ?

We have a hung parliament and the one after the next GE may be also,
because the country is also split Tory vs Labour with no clear winner.

The hard right - same billionaires, different company names - might "nudge" the next GE to the Tories too

Did they nudge the 2017 GE ?

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 12:19

The changes to Labour Party's constitution under Milliband, have been so successfully used by some, to block democratic accountability of 'leadership' to PLP and local Labour membership. I understand the PLP is set to have even less power; can't find the reference for now.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 12:25

We see the same attempts to shut down the self-ID debate in Mumsnet:

Multiple threads complaining that
a) they are bored with trans threads Hmm - so they keep creating new ones ?
b) self-ID has already happened / is inevitable - pointless resisting
c) any opposition is hatred by the privileged feminist elite who are "harridans"
d) we would get a better outcome if we just kept quiet and don't annoy people

All of the above are different tactics to shut down women debating issues that are crucial to our future

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 12:34

attempts to shut down the self-ID debate in Mumsnet
and elsewhere. Hmm

might "nudge" the next GE to the Tories too
I wonder if like the trans thingy, we might be approaching peak nudge?
FB is in trouble, lots of people seem to be deleting their accounts.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
Hasenstein · 28/03/2018 12:36

BCF

I'm sure better minds than mine have looked at this so-called "boredom" problem. With the Leavers I know, I suspect boredom is an excuse for ignorance (and hence fear) of the complexities and (possibly lazy) unwillingness to make the effort to look behind the soundbites. I know people have busy lives outside Brexit, but it's such a hugely crucial issue for the country that they can't just ignore it.

Which is why I was spitting mad at that BBC piece, which simply perpetuates the "it's just sooo boring" excuse and gives people a reason to hide behind it.

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 12:43

THE JUSTICE Sectary is facing calls to resign today after he refused to grant a review of the release of black cab rapist John Worboys - saying it wouldn't succeed.

David Gauke today blamed his lawyers and welcomed the decision for Parole Chief Nick Hardwick to quit over his handling of the case - and congratulated victims for their huge legal win to help keep the black cab rapist behind bars.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/5920252/worboys-john-review-case-decision-david-gauke-calls-quit/

@Steven_Swinford
Tory MP on David Gauke after John Worboys parole overturned: 'He fed up, he could not have fed up more. He showed no leadership at all, he allowed himself to be rolled by officials. He is fighting for his future, he has to take responsibility and consider his position.'

Who's next for DOJ?

borntobequiet · 28/03/2018 12:55

One of the BBC Brexit correspondents on Today or PM (a couple of weeks ago) apologised for going into boring detail about something or other technical...I was so annoyed, that's what a correspondent on a complex topic is supposed to do so we understand it...Radio 4 affords less respect to the intelligence and attention span of its audience than I did with my least able and worst behaved Y9 classes, when I taught secondary.

Hasenstein · 28/03/2018 13:11

borntobequiet

It's just bloody condescending and gives lazy sods an excuse to disengage. Of course all these things are technical and indeed complex, but that's no excuse for patting people on the head and telling them not to worry their pretty little heads about it, we'll do it for you (but won't let on what we're doing). It's so maddening.

People then happily grab the excuse to decline any further involvement; of course, most of us are both busy with daily life and many can't be arsed to focus on complicated matters, but the BBC and other media shouldn't be spouting flippant excuses for people to leave such things to their betters.

You then end up with the lala land attitudes often seen by unicorn herders on other threads, although I suspect the declining number of Leave posters probably take the BBC view that it's taking sooo long and is now sooo boring.TM will sort it, so let's crack on Angry

Anyway, I've complained to the Beeb about their approach and await their response with interest (provided they're not bored with it after sooo long).

JanettheNotebookJunkie · 28/03/2018 13:24

In real life no one I know talks about Brexit (these threads keep me sane!)

I watched the Newsnight interview with Christopher Wylie. In the piece leading up to it, a reporter warned that it should be taken with "a pinch of salt". During the interview Kirsty Wark looked at Wylie with pity as though he was a complete fantasist. I worry that's how more voters will perceive it - just too far fetched to have happened in Blighty.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 13:36

It's just bloody condescending and gives lazy sods an excuse to disengage. Of course all these things are technical and indeed complex, but that's no excuse for patting people on the head and telling them not to worry their pretty little heads about it, we'll do it for you (but won't let on what we're doing). It's so maddening.

remember in the UK, people have been trained from an early age (i.e. in the playground) to be openly suspicious of learning and achievement. "Swot" is still an insult, and people who waste their time learning are "square", "geeks", "swots" and certainly not one of "the cool kids" (RHLSTP Grin).

It used to be touted as some sort of inbuilt protection against messianic leaders - the slightly leery deference to status. But as Give has demonstrated, it merely enabled people with vested interests to casually dismiss cumulative millennia of learning, research, understanding and knowledge with "we all know about 'experts' " ....

The only way to articulate that, is to believe we are a society which would rather be thick and half-fed, than learned and satiated.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 13:44

I certainly do not agree with Jennifer James on everything but this says a lot:

Two Flames @ msjrnniferjames
Tory David Gauke told women who survived being raped by John Worboys a judicial review would 'fail'.
Labour's Keir Starmer, when Director of Public Prosecutions, let scores of rapes by Worboys to go unprosecuted.

Why is the safety, dignity and freedom of women worth so little?

This is also special.

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/david-lammy-threatened-with-deselection-after-attending-labour-antisemitism-protest-a3800991.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true
David Lammy threatened with deselection over Labour anti-Semitism rally

Let's call this out for what it actually is. This isn't a bad comment:

TSE @ TSEofPB
So the Corbynites want to expel a black man for attending an anti-racism march. What a world we live in.

No white middle class privilege on display here at all. None what so ever.

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