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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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Icantreachthepretzels · 28/03/2018 17:31

If remain had won I think we would have all forgotten all of this nonsense by the end of June 2016 - end of July at the latest. Nigel Farage would still be rampaging around but nobody else would even be mentioning it.

After all - if remain had won there would be nothing to oppose. It would just be the continuation of the status quo and the tories could get on with domestic policy and labour could get on with opposing that.

But the biggest constitutional change the country has known since ever?... Yeah the opposition really ought to be making that as difficult as possible. Otherwise what is the point of them?

Motheroffourdragons · 28/03/2018 17:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

GnotherGnu · 28/03/2018 17:36

Useful commentary here on the Worboys decision - www.matrixlaw.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/DSD-explanatory-note-in-the-Worboys-case-27.3.18.pdf. Gauke certainly should resign: it's pretty disgraceful that he's tried to pressurise Hardwick into being his scapegoat. May should produce some explanations for the failure to fund the Parole Board properly, too.

prettybird · 28/03/2018 17:37

I truly hope that Labour get hammered in Scotland at the next GE and in the Holyrood and council elections (the latter two of which, in Scotland, are various forms of PR). (For the avoidance of doubt, I am also hoping that the Conservatives get their just desserts).

Point 6 of their "6 Point Test" is patently obviously not going to be achieved ever by Autumn Confused, before you even start to consider the other points Sad, so how can she claim it will be and that as a consequence Labour will support the Bill? Angry

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 17:43

Gauke certainly should resign: it's pretty disgraceful that he's tried to pressurise Hardwick into being his scapegoat. May should produce some explanations for the failure to fund the Parole Board properly, too.
I agree gnu btw, lib dems have had a couple of very large local election wins recently in his manor. Maybe this might be an opportunity for some tories to replace him.

Peregrina · 28/03/2018 17:43

If remain had won I think we would have all forgotten all of this nonsense by the end of June 2016

The 90% of the population who never gave the EU a second's thought, but did like their cheap flights to Spain and Greece, would go back to not giving it any thought. The Tories of the ERG group would continue to make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't vote Labour and am not in an area where they ever win, but those of you who do and are - get writing smartish to your MP/candidate telling them that their pro-Brexit stance is unacceptable.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 17:48

Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick
This is Jeff Silvester, boss of Vote Leave's Canadian data firm AIQ visiting Number 10 last autumn. I'm told his AIQ colleague Zack Massingham went with him, and they also visited Conservative HQ. Number 10 have yet to answer my question as to what their visit was about

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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mathanxiety · 28/03/2018 17:53

RTB
He also talked of how companies were interested in countries with lax labour laws, or where the laws can be "liberalised", to exploit those countries. They deliberately set out to destabilise countries. Sort of a privatised 'colonisation' (actually this has precedence worth noting here: the East India Company was actually a private venture, which collapsed and was bailed out by the British State). In the context of Boris Johnson, Daniel Hannan and other free traders this does sound significant.

I think this is tremendously significant.

Wrt influence - they looked for 'fertile ground', as identified by personality profiles.

The UK has a preference for dog-whistle, backwards-looking political discourse which has resulted in tribalism. The press plays a key role in encouraging that.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 17:54

If Hilary Clinton, or indeed any "normal" Republican like Jeb Bush had got in, then the Brexit situation would also be totally different:

The US would either have ordered May to cancel Brexit, or at least ensured it was a complete BINO.
They would especially have safeguarded the GFA too, which fits with that.

The US has until now restrained the UK from delusions of power, the most notable being Suez.

We've never had a situation before where both the US and UK have become unhinged at the same time

  • and it seems caused by the same secretive hard right alliance
RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:04

www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped?CMP=share_btn_tw
11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped
Leaving aside the £350m for the NHS, Brexit has promised quick and easy trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world, an end to ECJ jurisdiction and free movement, and British control of North Sea fishing. None of this has come to pass. Here are 11 key abandoned claims

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:07

Hayley Barlow @Hayley_Barlow
Tonight a special report by @C4KylieM in Denver, Colorado at 7 on #c4news:

Cache of campaign data seen by Channel 4 News from a #CambridgeAnalytica source, detailing 136,000 individuals plus their personality and psychological profiles - despite assurances it had been deleted.

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mrsreynolds · 28/03/2018 18:07

I'm hoping the lib dems do well at the local elections in May

I hope both the Tories and Labour get a nasty shock

Luckily no elections here so I don't have a hard decision to make

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:09

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
The great Andy Grice reveals that Jeremy Corbyn planned to apologise for defending the anti-Semitic mural on Saturday, but his draft statement was amended by "senior aides".

www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-ken-livingstone-become-pm-a8277496.html
Corbyn will have to upset old friends to his left if he is to become prime minister
With at least 74 claims of antisemitism by Labour figures unresolved, Corbyn needs speed up the painfully slow disciplinary process and stop kicking tricky cases like that of his friend Livingstone into the long grass

But senior aides, judging that the row would soon blow over, toned it down to saying he sincerely regretted not looking at the image more closely.

Sounds a lot like we need to have a Nick and Fiona moment...

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woman11017 · 28/03/2018 18:10

More interesting links on this thread too.
twitter.com/traciemac_Bmore/status/97868179914357555
See SA,
Linked to Bell Pottinger linked to Tories.
www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-12-01/pr-uncovered-bell-pottingers-links-to-government
political discourse which has resulted in tribalism .
www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/04/bell-pottinger-expelled-from-pr-trade-body-after-south-africa-racism-row

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:13

Tim Shipman @ShippersUnbound
Who can this Milne? I mean, who can this mean?

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 18:13

People now don't seem willing to spend more than 10 seconds considering any issue
Attention span and intellectual capacity of goldfish.

Interesting that so many - including on MN - get angry at the "mc Guardian-reading elite" who do take the time
and who keep referring to facts & complexities, instead of 4-word slogans.

I remember far deeper and more knowledgable public discussions in the 1960s and 1970s.
Not just the younger generation. but the middle-aged folk who had fought in, or lived through, WW2

My parents generation, born around the end of WW1, seemed to have a much longer attention span than the older generation today ; they knew more facts, more history & general knowledge and were better prepared to examine issues in detail.
Even though many wc folk then, like my dad, left school on their 14th birthday for full-time work.
They respected education and knowledge, professional expertise, much more than today.

The average IQ is supposed to have increased slightly every decade

but in practical terms, not academic measures, the Uk - and the US - seem to have become much stupider countries overall

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 18:13

JC can't control his 'crew' online and off, wrt to their anti semitism. Horrible things Baddiel, Freeman, Lammy are having to put up with today. Wrong.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 18:14

So, my parents actually had some wisdom for me to respect

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 18:17

Reminding ourselves of that mural, which some folk elsewhere keep minimising:

It showed caricatured Jews playing Monopoly on the backs of emaciated bodies.

The artist’s own explanation for why his mural was being erased :

“Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are.” Hmm

Nice person for JC to support

ALittleAubergine · 28/03/2018 18:26

I think the artist said it's table of bankers including two Jewish bankers.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:26

George Eaton @georgeeaton
Emily Thornberry's comments in full: Labour will "probably" vote for the Conservatives' Brexit deal.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/emily-thornberry-labour-will-probably-vote-conservatives-brexit-deal

George Eaton @georgeeaton
But Labour source plays down Thornberry's remarks. “How we vote on the withdrawal agreement will be decided against our six tests. We won’t know the details until October.”

Owen Smith @OwenSmith_MP
This is, in part, why I wrote the piece which led to my sacking last week. We are in danger of sleepwalking into supporting the Tories Brexit debacle. If the deal doesn’t meet Labour’s tests we MUST oppose it. And refuse to accept that simply means we fall out on WTO terms.

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Hearing Starmer less than impressed - ‘this is not the position’ - says one MP

So she will be sacked then? Right?

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DGRossetti · 28/03/2018 18:30

I'm hoping the lib dems do well at the local elections in May

They'd have to be eating babies and throwing the bones out of windows to lose my vote.

Very disappointed in Labour, but at least my Labour candidates know why they're not getting the Rossetti vote.

Rather annoyingly, our Tory incumbent managed to piss me off before I could decide not to vote based on Brexit. But I'm sure I'll get over it.

And with the understanding that whatever happens, it's unlikely to go back to how it was before I die, I have to think about jam today, not tomorrow.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:35

amp.theguardian.com/media/2018/mar/28/julian-assange-internet-connection-ecuador-embassy-cut-off-wikileaks?__twitter_impression=true
Ecuador cuts off Julian Assange's internet access at London embassy
Government accuses WikiLeaks founder of putting international ties at risk by failing to abide by deal not to interfere in other countries

Oh noes. Someone switched off the wifi. Why they didn't do that ages again, I don't know.

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:38

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94017/excl-labour-mp-john-woodcock-planning-resign-party
EXCL Labour MP John Woodcock 'planning to resign party whip'

John Woodcock is planning to resign the Labour whip in protest at the party's direction under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, PoliticsHome has learned.

He's the MP who shouted 'thats a lie' at Corbyn in the HoC the other day over comments about Russia.

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 18:41

He's Barrow and Furness so I'll bet Corbyn is going down well at the nuclear plant and the dockyards...

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