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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 15:38

I agree there should have been a minimum living wage but ...

I wonder how much of that 'It allowed employers to pay low wages and perpetuated a benefit culture' is actually true, you know, prettybird. I haven't seen any research but I know there was a massive push of stories about this, prior to the Conservatives rolling that back. And wages don't seem to have risen any as the benefits system has been reconfigured.

I mean that genuinely. I was wondering about this the other day - about the extent to which working tax credits enabled or facilitated low wages. My guess is that it would have been in limited circumstances: geographically limited and limited in certain industries. But I would love to see some detailed research on it.

After all, apparently wages were also depressed because of immigrants. And because of the EU and their zero hours contracts. And because of the rise of double income families.

At the very least, I suspect the causes of low wages are multi-factorial. And I further suspect that they have a longer history and the result is geographically discontinuous.

My suspicion arises partly because it was so much a part of the whole Conservative and Leave spin. Which just leaves me wondering as to how much of a truth basis it actually had.

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 15:39

Well, OK it's not a thread for reminiscing

True. However, since an awful lot of the Leave sentiment was generated by whipping up a non-existent golden age, there's surely some scope for pointing out how much bollocks that was/is based on too.

thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 15:54

Yes. I agree with that.

thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 16:01

By the way, this has helped me go some way to crystallising what I mistrust about identity and cultural politics.

There's a theory that cultural politics increases as progressive input into/purchase on actual legislature decreases.

In the 80s, we saw a lot of what we would ow term 'virtue signalling' in culture, and a lot of what I would term 'vacuous representation'. There were increased representation of working class, women and people of colour in images, and some degree of opening of access (with some success). However, crucially, there was no real attack on the structures that led to what is impolitely known as 'oppression' - the structures that held large numbers of people back.

It's been genuinely fascinating to see what real change (for example, in access to higher education) looks like -- rather than a representation of more equality. And it's interesting to consider how much had to be put in place, in areas far beyond simply changing HE funding, to make that possible (I'm thinking things like SureStart, the increase of funding for London schools, and Connexions here, too).

prettybird · 04/04/2018 16:03

I don't know the research either Cat : my comments were based on observations from real life, comments from people in RL or MN who gave up on claiming tax credits because of problems with supposed over payments then crucifying their day-to-day income and the resultant panic attacks as to how they will cope. We've been fortunate and never needed/been in a position to claim them.

Did a wee bit of digging and found this research http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/taxcreditsandwages.pdf which itself admits that it is a difficult and nuanced picture and needs further work. Interestingly, the one area it does see is a correlation of wage increases surprise, surprise when the NMW was introduced. That would tie in with my comment that it should have been introduced alongside a National Living Wage - and not in advance of the NMW Sad

It was particularly the retail sector I was thinking of - which is what that research focusses on.

Peregrina · 04/04/2018 16:03

Yet Leavers constantly assure us that they are not xenophobic.......

Were there ever golden ages? It very much depended on who and where you were. Think about the vast number of 1930s semis dotting the country. We think of the thirties as being a time of deprivation yet the scale of the house building shows that there were plenty who were doing quite nicely thank-you.

Mistigri · 04/04/2018 16:14

I think the hardships of the 70s and 80s can be tracked back to a really miserable, miserly, and inflexible benefits system, for a start.

Really? Compared to today? As a student in the early 1980s I was able to claim housing benefit, and I could have claimed what I think was called supplementary benefit in the holidays except because I could touch type I was always able to get temping work.

Low income (though middle class - teacher) single mum meant that I also got a full grant.

thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 16:16

It's interesting that the research has been carried out by Civitas (right of centre think tank) - though not completely surprising, given that the incentive to examine and change an existing policy would be most likely to come from that direction. Doesn't discount the findings, of course, though might limit some areas of observation. Interesting about retail.

Someone, somewhere must either have carried out a PhD, or be undertaking a PhD on this, because it's interesting.

Thank you for finding it, prettybird. I'm going to read it properly because I think I'm genuinely interested in this.

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 16:16

By the way, this has helped me go some way to crystallising what I mistrust about identity and cultural politics

returning (briefly) to the reminiscing ... when I joined the NUS in 1984, I had quite a debate with the official about filling in the "ethnicity" part of the form (which I never complete). Even then he told me it was about "how I identified" rather than who I was ... I walked away thinking "this won't end well".

Even to this day, I really, really, really can't understand why providing ethnicity details before any form of process is applied can in any way make that process fairer than if no details were provided, and names, gender and age were simply blanked out with a reference number instead.

prettybird · 04/04/2018 16:16

Pressed post too soon (thanks to pushy cat Blush)

My concern is that the tax credits system has helped accelerate the increasing disparity between top incomes and the incomes at the lower end (that increase is proven but the reasons for it are debatable according to your perspective).

And I am not demonising those that receive tax credits as being "wrong". I just think it is a stick that the far (and not so far) right will use saying that too many people are "living off benefits" - despite it being a direct result of government policy AngryConfused

And of course, this conveniently glosses over the fact that the biggest proportion of the DWP budget goes on pensions Confused

None of this will be changed by Brexit as it is all internal government policy - except insomuch as if the economy crashes, the government will have to make hard choices as to what to spend the declining revenues from a declining GDP on. And with this government, I don't see them prioritising the vulnerable Sad I just see more of the "we need to create a Singapore style low tax, low regulation economy" wet dreams of JRM, Redwood, Gove et al SadAngry

prettybird · 04/04/2018 16:24

I just did a quick search Cat and recognise that Civitas is a right of centre think tank. But even it recognised that the evidence is a mixed bag (so you could probably analyse it either way Wink). It mentions Citizens UK (Reference 4) as having claimed that it depressed/subsidised retail wages, but I'm only on my phone so I couldn't click through to it.

EmilyAlice · 04/04/2018 16:27

I have just realised that maybe the reason why I don’t think the strikes of the seventies were a big deal is because I have now lived in France for over a decade. 😀
We will keep the car topped up in case the tanker drivers join in and keep an eye on the c’estlagrève app (yes it exists).
It will without a doubt finish at the end of June so everyone can go on holiday.

mrsreynolds · 04/04/2018 16:40

Agree re benefits under new labour...
A living wage would have made much better sense
I feel some people were/are "trapped" being better off on benefits than working
That's insane however you look at it

prettybird · 04/04/2018 16:45

DGRossetti - I always have difficulty defining my ethnicity. I identify as "white Scottish" yet I have no Scottish blood that we've been able to find Confused

I do however have German, Swedish, French Hugeunot, Irish, Afrikaans/South African (many generations), English, Australian and Danish in my family tree. So am I white European or White African WinkConfused? .......with my blue eyes, blonde hair and high cheekbones! Grin

And my 100% Scottish dh has olive skin and black eyes Confused we suspect a shipwrecked Spaniard

Motheroffourdragons · 04/04/2018 16:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 16:58

DGRossetti - I always have difficulty defining my ethnicity.

When and why do you need to define it ? As soon as you define it, you limit it, and as soon as you limit it ...

hang on, wrong decade Grin.

We all start as human. Everything. Every thing else is a human construct. And as soon as you have anything made by one human, you can guarantee there will be another human who disagrees. Doubly so on AIBU Grin.

Even my non-English half of descent is totally open to argument, if you know the ongoing squabbles in my DFs homeland (currently having a lot of fun wondering if the bottom half should be cast aside as a bunch of lazy good-for-nothing layabouts).

As for my "English" half ... well my DGF was born in Darjeeling, spoke Hindi before English, and always called himself "Indian" before "British" (despite looking like Hugh Grant). In his retirement, he was overjoyed that people from India were coming to Britain, as he hadn't had a decent curry since he left (before WW2). In fact it was this heritage which prompted the discussion with the NUS guy.

prettybird · 04/04/2018 17:11

DG - the only time I really consider it is when I'm doing the census - so in theory only once every 10 years Grin. Although if I'm in a good mood and not feeling particularly cantankerous, I might complete the ethnic monitoring form that comes I think with the Glasgow City Council electoral register forms although usually do it on line now so I don't recall seeing it last time

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 17:32

I love you all today. You make me feel young!

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/04/2018 17:38
Grin

I have no first hand knowledge to contribute but coincidentally, this was the first thing I read in a book today:

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/04/2018 17:42

Ha, “the first thing I read in a book”
is so awkwardly phrased but I’ve not read a book in ages, hence the urge to share the fact that I did explicitly with the world Blush

prettybird · 04/04/2018 17:42

You are but a babe Red, in contrast to rest of us Grin

.....an articulate and educated baby, but a baby nevertheless Wink

ignores the alternate explanation that some of us are just "old" Blush

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 04/04/2018 18:00

I never know what to call myself in ethnicity. I'm contemplating using a mixed or other in future just because.

enochroot · 04/04/2018 18:15

The 70s - I was a student. You could do an A level course at night school for a few quid and LEA grants helped us through degree courses. My brother's degree was paid for by a government sponsored apprenticeship.
The 80s - I took out a mortgage and interest rates went through the roof. We had to separate our wedding guests in 1984 at the height of the miners' strike. I taught in a mining community and saw bright pupils leave school with absolutely no prospects of employment.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 20:18

David Allen Green @ davidallengreen
The three legal paths to stop Brexit are blocked

Remainers should now look to what happens after 29 March 2019

By me, at @FT:
amp.ft.com/content/98a2c89a-37ef-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8?__twitter_impression=true

Julian Hoez @ hoezjulian
So the reaction to this is pretty shocking.

People who have for two years criticised #Brexiteers for ignoring experts and acting entirely off of feelings are now ignoring @davidallengreen's expertise and acting entirely off a feeling that they can stop #Brexit

I'm a #remainer, a #european and seriously at risk, but people need to stop and readjust how to go about this.

The government is not going to let Brexit not happen. The fight is how we all come out of this mostly intact to keep fighting for the better good

People need to listen to the experts on this, not fight them. They're the ones who have their ears to the ground and know whats going on, and who many of you should be getting your information from (think @KeohaneDan, @davidallengreen, @GuitarMoog and #EU27 diplomats)

This is also my feeling...
(Climbs under a rock for cover after the last time this came up in conversation).

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thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 20:22

FE has been utterly destroyed. That was definitely a feature of the 70s and much of the 80s that I would like to see back.

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