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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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Mistigri · 05/04/2018 07:31

I remember feeling utterly devastated when the Tories got in again in 1992, but they were slaughtered in 1997. New Labour, for all its Tory Lite faults, did do quite a lot of good things

I felt the same.

All governments fuck some things up. The remarkable thing about the Blair/Brown administration is not how much they got wrong, but how much they got right and the extent to which they are not given the credit for it.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/04/2018 07:37

It is double taxation whenever you buy goods or services that have VAT.

Those who receive house deposits, who later inherit houses from their parents are very privileged compared to those who receive nothing.
Property wealth passes down the generations, bypassing those whose parents weren't lucky enough to a property windfall

imo, property ownership of parents is a more important divide wrt life prospects of the kids than "class" or skin colour.

This division is will continue to worsen unless some of the tax bill is switched from income tax to a wealth tax and also increasing IHT.

However , a party advocating such measures will have a tough time getting a fair hearing at election time:
Homeowners - even supposedly leftwing ones - can get very indignant when it comes to preserving their sacred capital wealth down the generations
They have a clear advantage over others and they want their descendants to maintain this advantage in perpetuity.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/04/2018 07:39

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mrsreynolds · 05/04/2018 08:07

Having poor parents means I never got any money or "help"....
Never expected it tbh.
My mum now owns her council house (dont get me started on right to buy!!) But I'm assuming any sale cash will go on care fees.
Ditto pils.
It worries me how many people my age (45) are relying on an inheritance windfall after their parents die...I think they will be unpleasantly aurprised.
You only have to visit the caring for elderly parents thread to see why so many large family homes are not on the market...1 or 2 very elderly very frail occupants who won't accept help or that they need to move to more suitable acccomodation.
Worried about not passing on wealth too.
My dh has an aunt and uncle like this...sad.

mrsreynolds · 05/04/2018 08:13

...and don't get me started on non means tested benefits either!
Dhs uncle is 89...he retired at 55.
They are very wealthy.
They have another property worth £300k they refuse to sell but can no longer visit.
Hes been claiming state pension for nearly 35 years.
It wasn't designed to be paid out for that long!
They also get a the fuel allowance which his aunt once gleefully told me that they spent on wine.
It's just...ridiculous.
The welfare system needs a massive overhaul but there is no political will to do it.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 05/04/2018 08:17

My late GM went through the care system (she died 7 years ago). It was a massive eye opener. Now I view inheritance as something that would be nice to get but nothing to rely on or expect after having been taught by my parents to expect it. The personal benefit is that the threats to cut me out of wills holds no power. Both my parents are disabled now, i can't imagine them not going into homes lifting them being something neither me nor my sibling can do now

prettybird · 05/04/2018 08:20

I agree with you both Mistigri and BigChocFrenzy - I was just stating dh's argument; I disagree with that argument for exactly the reasons you mention. We have had quite a few arguments discussions about it and now just have to agree to differ Hmm.

Ironically, dh will never be hit with inheritance tax from his parents' tiny estate whereas, my db and I will be the ones benefitting from a decent inheritance (although unless it is dropped, unlikely to be close to the threshold). Confused

My dad is the sort of person who rings up HRMC to say that they have undercharged him £10 Grin - he's always seen taxation as something that he can not only afford (as he was well paid as a doctor) but has a duty to pay if we as a society want to pay for the sorts of things that we should have available (health, education, caring for the vulnerable.....) - and brought me up to feel the same way Smile

Peregrina · 05/04/2018 08:54

Someone who retired at 55 wouldn't be able to claim a state pension until they were of retirement age, and even claiming a work pension early reduced the amount. But, the scandal here is that the age which women can draw their pensions was steadily increased, without sufficient publicity, so that many didn't realise in time to make provision.

One argument I have seen floated for IHT is that it should be taxed as income of the recipients.

But we are going off at tangents.... Maybe a catastrophic crashing out of the EU will have the effect that the last War did - a huge shake up of society, and the will to do something better for future generations.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 09:00

I may be wrong Hmm but I seem to recall an article - possibly Private Eye - which explained how the elite kept hold of all their money, by never really owning it. It's all tied up in trusts which - for the purposes of taxation - are treated as companies.

The thing about a company - as opposed to an individual - is that it can never die.

If it never dies, it never needs pay inheritance tax.

There's also something about people owning vast tracts of land which isn't registered anywhere - apart from their deeds. So it's impossible to know how much the trust (which holds the land) is worth.

There was a change in the law requiring all land transactions to be registered (which is why Private Eye was reporting it) ... however as long as the land remains held in trust there's no record generated.

If I'm spouting off, please correct me. The point is that once you have money, it becomes a hell of a lot easier to hold onto it.

Even if I'm way off beam, there is the fact that 85% of the land dished out by William the Bastard is still owned by the same families he gave it to. One thing England that truly does provoke universal admiration the world over is how that's been maintained over 1,000 years.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 09:02

The remarkable thing about the Blair/Brown administration is not how much they got wrong, but how much they got right and the extent to which they are not given the credit for it.

Blairs legacy will always be Iraq Sad. Not the HRA. Not the GFA. Not the minimum wage - 3 things that any government should be proud of.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 09:05

It's like blaming the whole of the Iraq war on Tony Blair

Can't speak for others, but I'm not that simple. What I do blame him for is going on TV and lying in order to garner support. Cynical as I am (and was) it went lower than I thought a Prime Minister could go.

It's certainly one of the spokes in the wheel of contempt that we now have for politicians that was so artfully played like a fiddle by Farage.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 09:09

Maybe a catastrophic crashing out of the EU will have the effect that the last War did - a huge shake up of society,

But all that shaking seems to be resettling back to pre-war stratification ? Certainly from my perspective almost everything is going backwards (I think I now get Robert Newmans premise in "The History of the World Backwards" - it seems eerily prescient now). Womens rights. Workers rights. Technology. Transport. Career opportunities. Living standards. Poverty. Disease.

HesterThrale · 05/04/2018 09:12

the scandal here is that the age which women can draw their pensions was steadily increased, without sufficient publicity, so that many didn't realise in time to make provision. Peregrina

Yes and the petition to fight these stealth changes is now nearly 3/4 million signatures. A lot of unhappy people. I'd argue that women over 50 are an aware, perceptive but disgruntled demographic. Who can remember the good and bad of the 70s, 80s and 90s and can put it into the perspective of possible futures. We need to put up a fight for the best outcome for us and our children. I'm not giving up yet. We deserve better government.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/state-pension-age-for-woman-to-be-reduced-from-66-to-60

Motheroffourdragons · 05/04/2018 09:18

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Peregrina · 05/04/2018 09:26

He did not go into that war without the support of the elected members of parliament.

Quite, and the same amnesia which affects MPs now about their vote then, will in due course affect them when they remember that they voted A50 through.

But all that shaking seems to be resettling back to pre-war stratification ?

At the moment, yes, but I hope that in time people will wake up and start to say 'we can do better'.

Mistigri · 05/04/2018 09:28

Blairs legacy will always be Iraq

I'm not a fan of Blair and his behaviour over Iraq was probably criminal.

Nevertheless his administration was mostly competent, resolved a lot of the problems caused by Thatcherism, and created a more outward looking UK that probably had the greatest cultural and soft power influence of any country in the world, relative to its size.

HesterThrale · 05/04/2018 09:50

I hope you're right Peregrina.

Maybe a catastrophic crashing out of the EU will have the effect that the last War did - a huge shake up of society, and the will to do something better for future generations.

I can just about remember as a child seeing postwar growth all around me. Just in my little town: a new library, doctors' surgery, new primary and secondary schools all built in the 50s/60s. And so many new estates of houses with gardens. Evidence of a government who thought society and people were worth investing in and looking after. I suppose older folks then felt a newfound hope for the future after the desperate days of the 40s.

But do we really need to sink to rock bottom again to improve our government? It's a shame we don't notice frog-boiling more quickly.

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2018 10:54

Just had a good cry over the Patrick Kielty documentary someone recommended up thread. NI was what got me into politics and why I ultimately went on to study the media.

It struck me how far we have moved away from the politics of compromise and consensus and the irony of who is driving away from that, isn't lost on me.

Arlene was very human in the documentary.

How I wish for a Mo Mowlam.

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Motheroffourdragons · 05/04/2018 10:56

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TomRavenscroft · 05/04/2018 10:59

The only thing I comfort myself with is that it will clear out a lot of the present politicians; I really don't expect May, Gove, Johnson, Fox, Davis, Redwood, Rees-Mogg to be in politics, (except they might all be sent to slumber in the Lords). Johnson I definitely think has blown it and won't become PM.

I am increasingly inclined to agree with this.

It still, though, leaves the question of who replaces May? I've cycled through thinking it would be Gove, Johnson, Rudd… but now I think all of these are out of the picture. I never thought Fox would be PM. I don't think Davis would want to be. Redwood is small fry. Rees-Mogg is NOT the Tories' new Trojan horse, IMO, even though I think some of the grassroots would like him to be.

It does leave a potential frightening vacuum though.

TomRavenscroft · 05/04/2018 11:00

How I wish for a Mo Mowlam.

Hell yes.

And Glenda Jackson. Much as I love her acting, by Christ we need people of her calibre in Parliament at the moment.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 05/04/2018 11:06

I have the Patrick Kielty doc recorded, so haven't yet seen it.

It's NI that really angers me over all this. Let's just throw away a hard fought peace treaty for some fucking idealism not apologising for the swearing.

And I'm highly aware that people are still ignoring Gibraltar and what happens with there too.

prettybird · 05/04/2018 12:39

I've told the story before on the Westministenders threads but it's pertinent to the current discussion.

Over 26 years ago, a group of us were recruited from industry on a pilot scheme into senior (but not top) levels of NHS management. The aim was to expose us to the best of management thinking and prepare us to be the NHS Chief Execs of the future (the fact that the NHS Purchaser/Provider split meant that planned career progression was doomed before it even started but that's a whole different story Hmm)

On 6 November 1991, Robert Maxwell of the Kings Fund came to talk to us at one of our periodic weeks at the Health Services Management Unit at Manchester Uni (can remember the date because of his name! Wink).

He recounted the thinking behind the setting up of the NHS and the a Welfare State: how the two world wars had progressively broken down the class barriers and developed a sense of collective responsibility and dare I say it, "society" Wink, which created the necessary will and impetus for the government, with cross-party support, to implement Bevin's proposals.

He went on to say that ever since then that the movement had been back to the individual, rather than collective or societal responsibility.

But, and he emphasised this: With. The. Exception. Of. Scotland.

I looked around the table and of the c12 of us (all working within Yorkshire and Trent Regional Health Authorities, who were the authorities piloting the scheme) every single one of us was Scottish or Scottish educated. Shock

That was over 26 years ago - and I don't see the respective trajectories as having changed Hmm

In 1997, when Scotland was voting on whether to have devolution, we also had to vote on whether we wanted tax varying powers of up to 3p in the pound. Everyone knew that that would never be used to reduce tax - it would only ever be to increase taxation. Despite (or because of?) that, the Scots voted in favour of that tax varying power (a whole other story about why it was never used....Hmm)

Regarding compromise and consensus politics, that is one of the many things I condemn Thatcher for: the move towards electoral dictatorship with no pretence of trying to find a middle ground with the opposition Sad

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 05/04/2018 13:06

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DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 14:20

the movement had been back to the individual, rather than collective or societal responsibility.

The "Why should I pay for other peoples kids ?" brigade (visible even on MN ...)

Of course (and I don't give a shiny shit if she actually said it, or not. She mean it) Thacher famously said "there's no such thing as society".

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