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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
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thecatfromjapan · 04/04/2018 20:25

Don't worry, Red. I think although I'm never going to stop thinking Brexit should be stopped - and being furious about the lack of Opposition - I'm pretty resigned to the fact it seems genuinely unstoppable now. I suppose I feel that if I give an inch in my opposition, it will be taken as consent. Smile

enochroot · 04/04/2018 20:29

I did Sociology A level at night school just for the hell of it in the mid seventies. I was earning £10 a week and could still afford the fee!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 20:45

red I've been assuming since the GE that Brexit is now unstoppable (barring some catastrophe)

The important step now is to avoid a disorderly Brexit - whether caused by incompetence or a plan to loot -
and getting ready to campaign to rejoin, or at least rejoin EEA / EFTA if we leave that.

What will be important is explaining ad nauseum that any log-jammed ports, jobs lost etc are natural consequences of Brexit, not punishment by the EU for Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 20:49

I'd wondered if Westministenders were much older of an earlier vintage than most Mumsnetters.
Although some Brexiters seem to have very "old" attitudes

BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 21:01

https://www.politico.eu/article/facebook-cambridge-analytica-scandal-got-data-on-up-to-87m-people-privacy-mark-zuckerberg/

Facebook said Wednesday that Cambridge Analytica may have improperly obtained data on up to 87 million of the social network’s users, far more than the 50 million originally reported.

mrsreynolds · 04/04/2018 21:18

Yeah
It's going to happen
Best we can hope for is bino

Peregrina · 04/04/2018 21:30

I could see a BINO, too - I think the NI/RoI situation forces that. I still don't think it's hit Theresa May and Co as to what it will be like in less than a year now. It will of course be the EU 'bullying us'. I expect to pay as much as we do now, for those things we want to opt into, and I don't expect for one moment that the regions will get any money.

The only thing I comfort myself with is that it will clear out a lot of the present politicians; I really don't expect May, Gove, Johnson, Fox, Davis, Redwood, Rees-Mogg to be in politics, (except they might all be sent to slumber in the Lords). Johnson I definitely think has blown it and won't become PM.

Peregrina · 04/04/2018 21:31

...be in politics in five or ten years time, that should have said. Obviously they all quit sooner or later or the grim reaper comes for them.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/04/2018 22:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 22:20

Bbc breaking news @ bbcbreaking
Facebook now believes up to 87 million users had information improperly shared with consultancy Cambridge Analytica

The hoarse whisperer @ thehoarsewhisperer
A cynic might think Mark Zuckerberg is front-running his Senate testimony next week by releasing info FB has been hiding before he’d be forced to admit it under oath.

Andrew Neil @ afneil
Facebook now admitting most of its users could have had their profile data, such as phone numbers and email addresses, "scraped" by third parties. But buries the confession inside a post from its chief technology officer.

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Icantreachthepretzels · 04/04/2018 22:42

Maybe Brexit will go ahead after all... but that FT article didn't actually seem to say anything new (?). From the headline I thought all the legal cases that are ongoing had been thrown out... but actually it was saying was that scandal won't bring it to a halt or get rid of the mandate and that article 50 being revoked seemed unlikely (though not impossible).
And I might be wrong but I think this has been David Allen Green's position for a long time - it isn't a realisation he has suddenly come to.

I agree we should be trying to ensure as pain free a brexit as possible and then campaigning to rejoin ... but that also doesn't mean that we shouldn't be fighting to stop it full stop as well - a sort of two pronged approach. Or plan A and plan B, which would be a novel thing in British politics as the people in charge don't even - to quote friends - have a 'pl', never mind two whole plans with shiny letters.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/04/2018 22:43

I also think it doesn't take into account how quickly and bizarrely events can turn. It's not over until it's over.

mathanxiety · 04/04/2018 22:50

A little late to the reminiscence party, but...
I was in Ireland but only just Wink - I lived on the relatively affluent south side of Dublin where many of my peers were children of media people, professionals (especially engineers, weirdly enough), and started secondary school in the late 70s in a brand new community (aka state) school with very mixed intake and many teachers who were medja luvvies themselves. We spent our first year in prefabs while the school building went up. One teacher was a very prominent Irish feminist and later went on to lead a significant organisation, one was deeply involved in the Irish music scene and was later president of the Arts Council, there was a published poet, and the spouse of a very well known poet who got involved in writing competitions - I was very, very lucky.

I recall dad complaining about high taxes - they really were high, especially for the self employed which my dad was, and we were very, very frugal (grew our own veg, mum made our clothes, we turned off lights when we left the room, no central heating).

While there was a good deal of industrial action (and in my case worry about bus strikes because I went home from school by bus and it was way too far to walk, almost too far to bike) I also recall a sense of optimism. I overheard a lot at home about the new age of better jobs/population increase/decreasing emigration/bigger economy and a much bigger tax base that Ireland's new regional technical colleges would usher in (my dad was involved in the campaign for increased third level vocational education).

There was also a sense that a completely new culture was approaching - I see it as a tsunami offshore, heading steadily towards the coast. Maybe this was because the population was quite young - I was born in the 60s along with a huge number of others, suburbs were growing, the new town of Tallaght in the hills sw of Dublin was going to be bigger than Cork, everything was up for questioning - Irish afternoon radio chat/phone in programmes at the time were likely to have families throwing plates at each other instead of eating dinner.

You could get a grant from your home county to go to university if your grades in the Leaving Cert were above a certain threshold - it paid your fees and most counties offered a small stipend on top of that. Some counties were notoriously slow in processing the stipend, which caused a great deal of anxiety, borrowing from fellow students, and eating of baked beans on toast, or just baked beans, or indeed just toast.

By the time I was in university Ireland had begun presenting herself as a cutting edge place full of qualified people ready to start work in all the high tech industries that would be attracted by a pro business culture. There were posters showing graduates and the caption "Irish graduates: hire them before they hire you". John Hinde postcards of quaint cottages and donkeys and turf cutting were out. The 'Sense of Ireland' exhibition had been held in 1980. God bless him, Johnny Logan won the Eurovision! While philistine developers had savaged Georgian Dublin, and many areas of the city lay in a state of half ruin, a pushback had begun in the direction of appreciation of the best of the old, and conservation. There was a feeling of being on the cusp of change, and that Ireland was moving ahead at a faster rate than older generations realised.

I moved to the US in 1988 thanks to marrying an American. The immense cultural difference smacked me in the face. Ronald Reagan was president. American flags were everywhere. Greed was good. I decided never to become a citizen, and never have. I consider myself Irish not because of the passport I hold but because of values I hold that I really do not see in the US.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 22:52

www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-43633204?__twitter_impression=true
Leave.EU 'now a far-right organisation', Labour MP says

Erm about that, Wes... you seem to be about two years behind. Mind you main stream news seems to be about a year behind on politics, compared with here.

May should have factored this into when we triggered a50.

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mathanxiety · 04/04/2018 23:08

help.pinterest.com/en/articles/terms-service-update
Pinterest changes its privacy policy as a result of what it calls 'new European laws'. Pinterest is actually a goldmine of information about all of its users.

www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/time-call-housing-crisis-really-largest-transfer-wealth-living-memory/

"It’s time to call the housing crisis what it really is: the largest transfer of wealth in living memory"
In Britain, we have yet to confront the truth about the trillions of pounds of wealth amassed through the housing market in recent decades: this wealth has come straight out of the pockets of those who don’t own property.

House prices are now on average nearly eight times that of incomes, more than double the figure of 20 years ago. It’s unlikely that house prices will be able to outpace incomes at the same rate for the next 20 years. The past few decades have spawned a one-off transfer of wealth that is unlikely to be repeated. While the main beneficiaries of this have been the older generations, eventually this will be passed on to the next generation via inheritance or transfer. Already the ‘Bank of Mum and Dad’ has become the ninth biggest mortgage lender. The ultimate result is not just a growing intergenerational divide, but an entrenched class divide between those who own property (or have a claim to it), and those who do not.

Misleading accounting and irresponsible economics have provided cover for this heist. The government’s national accounts record house price growth as new wealth, ignoring the cost it imposes on others in society – particularly young people and those yet to be born. Economists still hail house price inflation as a sign of economic strength.

The result is a world which is rather different to that described in economics textbooks. Most of today’s ‘wealth’ isn’t the result of entrepreneurialism and hard work – it has been accumulated by being idle and unproductive. Far from the positive sum game capitalism is supposed to be, we have a system where most wealth is gained at the expense of others. As John Stuart Mill wrote back in 1848:

“If some of us grow rich in our sleep, where do we think this wealth is coming from? It doesn’t materialise out of thin air. It doesn’t come without costing someone, another human being. It comes from the fruits of others’ labours, which they don’t receive.”

When the value of a house goes up, the total productive capacity of the economy is unchanged because nothing new has been produced: it merely constitutes an increase in the value of the land underneath. We have known since the days of Adam Smith and David Ricardo that land is not a source of wealth but of economic rent — a means of extracting wealth from others. Or as Joseph Stiglitz puts it “getting a larger share of the pie rather than increasing the size of the pie”. The truth is that much of the wealth accumulated in recent decades has been gained at the expense of those who will see more of their incomes eaten up by higher rents and larger mortgage payments. This wealth hasn’t been ‘created’ – it has been stolen from future generations.

Brexit is only going to compound this.

SwedishEdith · 04/04/2018 23:16

but that FT article didn't actually seem to say anything new (?)

Agree, I thought I'd missed something. Remember, DAG didn't believe TM would ever trigger Art 50.

Pete North is sulking tonight because the media is paying attention to the FB/CA story and not his about businesses buying Brexit (and he's retweeted a thread from last July 17 - below). Which begs the observations - a) if he stopped calling people mongs etc, people might listen to him and b) he knew all of this and still voted Leave.

  1. 2014, Randox Laboratories Ltd donated £79,600.00 to the Tory party.
  1. Randox is bankrolling Owen Paterson.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/170109/paterson_owen.htm

  1. Irwin Armstrong, founder and chief executive of CIGA Healthcare - NI based, pro-Brexit, NI Tory party chairman.
  1. Ciga Healthcare is Toby Baxendale - now a director of Legatum and was also director of the defunct Leadsom4Leader
  1. Also happens to be director of the Cobden Centre with Steve Baker MP
  1. So we have political sponsorship of hard #brexit candidates, linked with private healthcare and Legatum
  1. Legatum also donates to Tory party.
  1. So do others:

Randox Laboratories Ltd, £79,600.00
Legatum Institute, £5,000.00
Toby O Baxendale £52,290.00
JCB Research £2,200,386.26

  1. All friends together. A big happy Brexit family.
anewnatureblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/24/owen-paterson-is-not-fit-for-purpose/
  1. And then there's the money men. The Chandlers.

www.insidetasmania.com/2012/02/the-chandlers-money-laundering.html

  1. And all of a sudden, Legatum are raking in millions as "charity"

apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/FinancialHistory.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1140719&SubsidiaryNumber=0

  1. Rather smells to me like Steve Baker MP, junior Brexit minister, is also bought and paid for - and so is The Telegraph.

  2. The perfect recipe for disaster capitalism.

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86556

HesterThrale · 04/04/2018 23:21

David Allen Green's article 'The three legal paths to stop Brexit are blocked' is linked to from his twitter. Here's the conclusion, which I thought interesting. He says the mandate for Brexit ends on 29.3.18 and has no further effect. Therefore I suppose there could be no subsequent claims of 'democracy being ignored' if attempts were then made to rejoin. Remainers would be freer to act.
I'd prefer we didn't go through Brexit in the first place, but this is a new line of thought...

But little is inevitable in policy and law: if the political will changes, the legal dots will be joined. A combination of bad news and political upheaval could still mean that the politics of Brexit could change and the process delayed or cancelled. But it seems ever more unlikely. A better course for those who want the UK to remain close to the EU, and to rejoin as quickly as possible, is to accept there is a mandate to leave, but to aver that that mandate will be discharged on, and so have no further effect after, 29 March 2019. The slate will be clean. There will be a path to rejoining under Article 49, and there will be a path to an association agreement that keeps the UK in the single market and the customs union, even if not as a full EU member. Those paths are open and, once the mandate is discharged, clear from any obstacle.

mobile.twitter.com/davidallengreen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

OlennasWimple · 04/04/2018 23:31

I'm a late 70s baby / 80s child / 90s teen

I remember growing up in a miserable market town, with lots of empty shops on the high street, people unable to afford a summer holiday (other than a day trip to the beach - which was a ten minute drive away, so not exactly an adventure....) and a Tory government that was seemingly unremoveable as the Left spent more time debating motions / arguing with itself / proposing policies that Cuba would consider a bit too radical

Plus ca change, plus ca change

Peregrina · 04/04/2018 23:35

The housing situation may indeed be the largest transfer of wealth in living memory. However, don't forget that increasing amounts of the wealth tied up in property is going to end up paying care home fees, so it won't be passed onto the next generation.

TM was right to be concerned about the costs of social care. Where she was wrong was dreaming it up as an idea to whop into an election manifesto. There is a serious debate needed about health and social care - what is needed and what we are able to pay for, but this isn't happening. Nor do I expect it to under the Tories who have to protect their wealthy friends.

Peregrina · 04/04/2018 23:41

and a Tory government that was seemingly unremoveable

I remember feeling utterly devastated when the Tories got in again in 1992, but they were slaughtered in 1997. New Labour, for all its Tory Lite faults, did do quite a lot of good things e.g. much more money went into Education. Blair also carried on the work that Major started with the GFA - then blew his reputation going to war in Iraq - although don't forget that Parliament voted that through.

prettybird · 05/04/2018 00:13

I agree about the wealth perpetuation and transfer caused by housing inflation.

Dh and I disagree on Inheritance Tax. I can see the thinking behind it because if the way it perpetuates and exacerbates inequality - he sees it as simple double taxation (and that the really wealthy can employ accountants to avoid it anyway he has a point on that Hmm).

When my dad dies (hopefully for not for many years Smile) my brother and I (and our children) will benefit richly from the mortgage free, increasing value of his home. If I didn't know his family's longevity, I could forget about worrying about my pension Wink

Even if Dad ends up needing to go into a home, his pension is enough to cover any costs.

DGRossetti · 05/04/2018 06:57

Did anyone here ever catch the stage production of Ben Eltons "Gasping" in the late 80s/early 90s ? (Featuring Hugh Laurie and Bernard Hill).

HL works for an advertising agency, and his boss - BH - dreams of "a Pot Noodle". By which he notes that when pot noodles were introduced, whilst they made money, no other snack brand lost sales. The pot noodle had "made money from nowhere". BH then exhorts HL to find a similar product. (Which he does. It's fresh air ... the whole play ends with all the air on earth sucked into bottles that people had to pay for). Very acid commentary on 80s yuppie culture.

I wrote all that because the talk of house prices making you richer whilst (some of) you sleep seemed to chime ...

Mistigri · 05/04/2018 07:24

Dh and I disagree on Inheritance Tax. I can see the thinking behind it because if the way it perpetuates and exacerbates inequality - he sees it as simple double taxation (and that the really wealthy can employ accountants to avoid it anyway he has a point on that^^

I don't understand this argument - firstly no one pays tax on capital gains on their primary residence to start with, and secondly to put it crudely you are not taxing the dead person twice (because s/he is dead and therefore cannot pay tax) but his or her descendants once.

The ease with which rich people can get around it is another question entirely.

Mistigri · 05/04/2018 07:27

David Allen Green's article 'The three legal paths to stop Brexit are blocked' is linked to from his twitter.

I like DAG but he's a lawyer and he sees this from a strictly and I think overly inflexible legal point of view when in fact this is a political question, as others on twitter have pointed out. Of course both sides are constrained by the law, but they are not completely hog-tied by it.

mrsreynolds · 05/04/2018 07:31

I did DG.
A friend and I went to London to see it. Seemed daft...at the time...

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