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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
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mathanxiety · 02/04/2018 06:32

Above all other problems facing us - brexit has to be stopped. We cannot hope to fix any other problems in the country if life as we know it comes to a grinding halt a year today.

YY to that.
Same issue in the US - on balance voting Democrat is a better idea even for gender critical feminists and many pro lifers or people who love Bernie Sanders and everything he stands for.

woman11017 · 02/04/2018 09:40

A head from a school in Cumbria, who would only give her name as “Lynn”, said her pupils put “food in their pockets to take home because they’re not sure if they’re going to get another meal that day

Louise Regan, from a Nottinghamshire primary school, said she noticed a difference when taking pupils to sporting events with other schools

You think ‘our kids are really small’, you don’t notice it because you’re with them all the time. When you then see them with children of the same age that are in an affluent area, they just look tiny

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/child-poverty-headteachers-schools-teachers-national-education-union-neu-austerity-a8283956.html

The 10 000 excess deaths that wasn't reported much, ( mentioned up thread)

inews.co.uk/news/health/10000-excess-deaths-nhs-england-wales/

These stories would be normal in a war. But normally the state would step in to save its citizens.

Agree about Faisal Islam being notable for his integrity and accuracy. The only intelligent pieces are in trade papers and blogs by doctors, scientists, lawyers and economists. Or in EU press.

RedToothBrush · 02/04/2018 09:50

Louise Regan, from a Nottinghamshire primary school, said she noticed a difference when taking pupils to sporting events with other schools

You think ‘our kids are really small’, you don’t notice it because you’re with them all the time. When you then see them with children of the same age that are in an affluent area, they just look tiny

DH is scout leader. He used to go to a group in a deprived area. He's made the exact same comment about the size of the kids compared to the troop he is now at.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 02/04/2018 10:13

In the 1960s-70s , I remember how small and bowed, many depression surviving, adults in the north east of my family and Glasgow of my childhood were.

Watching the EU brought affluence filter through to our country has literally made people taller and stronger. Tory induced penury is forcing this progress into reverse.

woman11017 · 02/04/2018 10:15

Free school milk,( and now school dinners) and the abandoning thereof has a lot to answer for.

Peregrina · 02/04/2018 10:22

In the 1960s-70s , I remember how small and bowed, many depression surviving, adults in the north east of my family and Glasgow of my childhood were.

I remember saying the same to a friend when once catching a bus from a poorer parts of Lancashire to a more prosperous part of Yorkshire. I said that those getting on in Lancs, tended to be smaller with more pinched looking faces. Those in Yorkshire tended also not to be tall, but were of a much stockier build with fuller faces.

Re the school dinners - I felt sickened to see the DoE spokesperson talking about Free School meals, when the Tories, including the Vicar's daughter Theresa May, have just voted to restrict them for children in Great Britain.

Hasenstein · 02/04/2018 10:34

Generals in WW1 complained about the size of our soldiers, who were generally smaller than the Germans. Typically, attempts were made to turn this negative into a positive by promoting "bantam" regiments of men who were so small they couldn't be called up for service under army regulations. We're talking under 5 feet here.

Any living organism, whether animal or plant, will be stunted by insufficient nutrition. The difference between well-fed middle class kids and deprived working class children doesn't take generations to become apparent, it happens in one generation.

Hasenstein · 02/04/2018 10:39

On a slightly different tack, I was one of the few kids at my school who never complained about school dinners (1960s). It was all grist to my mill and I'd eat absolutely anything, including what others didn't want. I was a small and skinny kid, too - hard to believe if you saw me now (Blush), but school dinners and a delicious 1/3 pint of milk were a lifeline.

prettybird · 02/04/2018 10:42

We see it even today: our local rugby club has a very mixed demographic but not even the poorest possible Hmm - but when we come up against teams from the wealthy suburbs, I have to reassure our parents that the giants larger boys they are playing are indeed indeed in the same age group as their boys. Shock

(I do registration so I know the ages of all the boys in our own teams so I know the variation in size that can be legitimate)

Ds notices it when passing the local private school on his way to his extremely demographically mixed State School. Says that they all look so much bigger.

There are areas in Glasgow where the average man will not survive long enough to draw a pension! ShockSad

woman11017 · 02/04/2018 10:56

Muhammad Ali was shocked when he met the Beatles as to how puny they were. Milk and steak versus depression genes.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
HesterThrale · 02/04/2018 11:03

To survive, you need adequate sustenance, healthcare and shelter. These are all basic human rights. (Article 25)

www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

(The UK signed this in 1951, a time of rebuilding the nation and looking to the future.)

You also need hope for the future. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing there are people who have given up hope.
We need a government who will inspire, encourage and care for us. The fact that this seems a laughable notion says something about what has happened to the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 11:18

Death rates US (Nobel prize 2014)

“This change reversed decades of progress in mortality and was unique to the United States;
no other rich country saw a similar turnaround” - THEN

I copied this recently, precisely because the US study was a few years ago and I wanted toi see if the UK was following in their wake
The slashing of the welfare state had much earlier effect there, because it wasn't much to start with
The UK used to have a comprehensive welfare state, but it shows where decades of cuts could lead.
^
ref :^ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/07/suicide-rates-rise-butte-montana-princeton-study^
^
Angus Deaton & Ann Case won the 2014 Nobel economics prizee,,
for work showing that
the mortality gap in the US between wealthy white men and poor ones was increasing by one year annually, slightly less for women.

They found that the death rate for white Americans aged 45 to 544* rose 20% over the years 1999-2013 (the period of their studies) after declining for decades.
That ‘s about half a million dying earlier.
...
The increase was not seen in other developed countries
e.g. in the UK, the mortality rate for middle-aged people dropped by one third over the same period.
< trend reversing ?>
...
That may go some way to explain the differing middle aged death rate with
other developed countries that have extensive welfare systems, free or cheap health care and greater support for pensioners.

prettybird · 02/04/2018 11:19

SadAngry Hester

The headteacher at ds' school says she has pupils who range from being the offspring of millionaires to a disgracefully high proportion of those who literally don't know when or where their next meal is coming ShockSad

A high proportion of its catchment is SIMD 1 & 2 (Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation) Sad Many are Roma - so even getting them to stay on beyond 16 is an achievement.

HesterThrale · 02/04/2018 13:48

I'd be interested to know how many of the extra 10,000 deaths in Jan/Feb were homeless/rough sleepers. I wonder if records are kept of that?

mrsreynolds · 02/04/2018 15:57

I was talking to my mum the other day about the extra deaths.
It's insane how this is not bigger news.
I work in a school...I know children who go hungry in school holidays.
I know children who will suffer because of the loss of FSM.
I'm trying to arrange a school holiday lunch club but....

prettybird · 02/04/2018 16:05

Who cares Hester HmmSad? Prue Leith certainly didn't when she tried to shut down discussion on it when she appeared on Question Time and Laura Pidcock tried to raise the issue of people literally dying on the streets SadAngry

mrsreynolds · 02/04/2018 16:32

Ah yes prue leith....yet another tv programme I can't watch because the host/s are cunts
😡

woman11017 · 02/04/2018 16:38

I was too shocked by Leith's indifference. prettybird and mrsr Her son Danny Kruger is a Legatum alumni.

^Salisbury attack sites face months of decontamination
Police to focus on places visited by Sergei and Yulia Skripal as Russia accuses UK of trying to distract from Brexit^

Decontamination was delayed so that Easter weekend visitors to Salisbury were not greeted by the unsettling sight of officers in protective suits. The process of safely reopening the sites to the public is expected to take many months.

More than 200 counter-terrorism officers continue to investigate the attack, with particular focus on the Skripals’ house on the outskirts of Salisbury
.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/02/salisbury-attack-sites-decontamination-russia-sergei-skripal

Curious.

thecatfromjapan · 02/04/2018 16:40

Bear in mind that the homelessness you see is gendered. It's mostly men who sleep rough. Female homelessness is usually women sleeping on a sofa - and I would imagine there is a correlation between that and sexual coercion/grooming. I've seen that situation in school, too - with a female-headed family living on a sofa and the daughter (primary age) being essentially groomed (that word covers so many things) towards sex work.

I do think we need to think a little deeper than North-South divide, though. I come across extreme poverty in London. It's a huge city and it is hugely divided. The wealth that exists in London (and that is a part of the North-South divide story) obscures the poverty. I am worried that the narrative we are creating - which serve to simplify enough to be able to talk about the changes we are seeing - over-simplify some of the nuance and actually reinforce a silencing of some of the most vulnerable and removed from representation.

Anyway, I think a lot of those extra 10,000 deaths were down to the NHS crisis in the winter. Unprovable - but registering as a (horrifying, actually) statistical blip. Sad

prettybird · 02/04/2018 16:41

Me neither Sad Yet I used to make myself watch it to try to understand broader arguments and perspectives. It is so blatantly biased and gerrymandered nowadays (strong Brexit and anti-independence audiences in Dundee it Glasgow for example ConfusedHmm) that it's no longer worth the increase in blood pressure. Angry

I have some scurrilous stories about Prue Leith via a relative of hers Wink

TomRavenscroft · 02/04/2018 16:48

Spill, prettybird!

SwedishEdith · 02/04/2018 16:50

Ooo, yeah, spill. Grin

woman11017 · 02/04/2018 16:54

Leith is from SA? prettybird but I'm guessing she wasn't active in the anti apartheid movement? Ooo, yeah, spill. Grin
correlation between that and sexual coercion/grooming female and young person homelessness is so dangerous, cat this thread was good on housing or lack of.Sad
twitter.com/clpsolicitors/status/979299437964091392

DGRossetti · 02/04/2018 17:06

Slight shift back to GFA and NI, but heads up for anyone who wants to know how far we've some since 1997

www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/my-dad-the-peace-deal-and-me

In 1988, when Patrick Kielty was just 16, his father was murdered by loyalist paramilitaries.
At the height of the Troubles, three men were charged with the killing, convicted of the crime, and sentenced to spend the rest of their lives in prison. Ten years later, the Good Friday Agreement was signed, setting out a path to peace in Northern Ireland. But for Patrick that peace came at a price: under the terms of the settlement the men convicted of his father’s murder walked free.

(contd)

prettybird · 02/04/2018 17:08

My lips are sealed Grin

....the one that's in the public domain is how she had a long affair with her mum's best friend's husband before eventually marrying him Shock

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