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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:22

Sorry that my post didn't follow the last dozen or so posts.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:36

How has Labour become estranged from a significant part of the working class ?

Somehow Corbynism is theoretical middle class politics which has lost the working class base in a way even Blair didn't.

It’s like he has an Islington allotment not a real one.

I think a factor is that lower middle class or working class voting is aspirational. The Tories appeal more to that whereas there's something about Corbynism that seems less aspirational like it would preserve people in a theoretical Cuba type zoo if you get what I mean.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:37

I'm not saying Cuba is a zoo but just trying to explain impounding a status quo...

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:51

I know I've made too many posts but just found this for Big Choc.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/06/does-working-class-need-ask-its-labour-party-back

woman11017 · 01/04/2018 09:53

@EuropeElects
EU membership referendum

Remain: 53% (+1)
Leave: 47% (-1)

Field work: 26/03/18 – 27/03/18
Sample size: 1,659

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 10:46

Thanks for that NS article, lonely
I remembered a grim analysis of how Labour % of working class votes had crashed under Corbyn, but I couldn't remember the details
He was supposed to be able to reach these wc voters, who were apparently repelled by Blair's mc centrism Hmm

woman We need to hope that Remain increases to a solid 60% - that would be what is required to change policy after the referendum result.
I wish I could think it likely before Brexit

Maybe after Brexit, there could 60% to join EEA / EFTA etc - if would help the Tories climb down from their unicorns during the transition period
Unfortunately, this public opinion change may not happen until after transition finishes and a hard Brexit - even a CETA type deal would hammer the economy and lose some business for ever.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 10:52

How has Labour become estranged from a significant part of the working class ?

Student politics. Its all about never having moved off campus. Thats why Corbyn is such a hero. He never left the campus.

Ironically this links back to student fees.

Less working class voices on campus, and those who are students don't have time to protest about all these issues. The ones who can are the most painfully middle class, and ironically most able to afford fees. Its made the echo chamber problem worse.

Unless Labour get out of the echo chamber, there will be a backlash and political fall out, at some point. If not now then in the future.

As for the CA story, tell me which front bench Labour shadow minister is leading on the threat to democracy? The emergency debate last week came from Tom Brake of the LDs.

Those who spoke in the debate were: Frank Field (Lab - who spoke to say even though he was a leaver thus should be investigated), Jim Cunningham (lab), Ed Davey (ld), Caroline Lucas(green), Ben Bradshaw(lab - who is the one labour mp really getting teeth into this), Layla Moran (ld), Paul Sweeney (lab), Martin Docherty-Hughes (SNP), Darren Jones (lab), Jonathan Edwards (PC), Adam Holloway, Christine Jardine (ld), Peter Grant (SNP), Wera Hobhouse (ld), Norman Lamb (ld), Tulip Siddiq (lab), Angela Eagle (lab), Heidi Alexander (lab), Geriant Davies (lab), Madeline Moon (lab), Luciana Berger (lab), Susan Elan Jones (lab), Tommy Sheppard (SNP), Jon Trickett (lab), Neil Gray (SNP) Lucy Powell (lab).

Where was the labour shadow cabinet? This is largely a whos who of hard core remainers on the back benches. Those Labour voices are all mainly 'blairites' too.

For the cons were: Henry Smith, William Wragg, Tom Loughton, Peter Bottomley, Edward Leigh, Simon Hoare and Chloe Smith. They all were throwing comments about Remain are many are rabid leavers.

Damian Collins also spoke at length after he apologised as he'd been in a 3 and half hour select committee hearing with Chris Wylie, and expressed concern.

And what of PMQs

Who talked of CA? It was Ian Blackford of the SNP and Alan Brown of the SNP and Caroline Lucas of the Greens. And there was also this question:

David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
Q8. The investigative reporter, Patrick Christys, has uncovered questions over serious data breaches by Labour headquarters. The Information Commissioner has been notified. Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister join me in asking the Information Commissioner to do a thorough investigation?

Again not a dickie bird from Labour.

Indeed I can't recall too many comments on twitter from Labour re CA.

This might be unfair, and I will try and look out for them now.

But yeah, a surprising amount of radio silence from Labour about the democratic implications of CA. Especially from the shadow cabinet.

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lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 11:08

As for the CA story, tell me which front bench Labour shadow minister is leading on the threat to democracy? The emergency debate last week came from Tom Brake of the LDs.

The MPs who did speak are interesting.So is this because Labour MPs ( like Gisela Stuart now retired) are also implicated?is it because the front bench deep down also believe all's fair in love and war?

Is there any evidence of psychographic profiling, or breach of electoral or referendum spending rules by the Remain representatives? (If there is, it was unsuccessful!)

ALittleAubergine · 01/04/2018 11:12

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if both sides were involved and all the parties as well.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 11:23

Carole Cadwalladr is gunning for Gove now:
twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/980372931690803201

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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 11:41

www.ft.com/content/5d94c22c-333e-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498
Labour eyeing historic victory in Tory flagship council Wandsworth
Low-tax borough targeted by opposition in May local elections

This is an interesting read about the Local Elections. I am stunned by the idea that a Band D property in central London only pays £750 in council tax.

The children's services in the borough are rated as inadequate by ofsted.

Here in the north, I'm Band C and pay roughly £1400. We are lower than a lot of places locally which are worse off. (Our borough definitely seems to be on the lower end of the scale which does surprise me tbh). I'm stunned at how low council taxes in London are relatively speaking.

The article also states that for the first time since 2006 a majority of Brits are in favour of higher taxes.

This graph from the article is staggering. Difficult to see the Borough not tuning red. I suspect I vote Labour if I was there. Hard not to.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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thecatfromjapan · 01/04/2018 11:44

So, if this were true, a group of shadowy billionaires came within a hair's breadth of installing a Prime Minister, with a direction of political travel endorsed and enabled by themselves, who had if true broken the law and was thus - potentially - compromised from a security point of view.

And if this were to be true, that person, though not a PM, holds a ministerial position, and may be potentially compromised from a security point of view. What position does that place the current PM in, who appointed him?

HesterThrale · 01/04/2018 11:56

Red iirc Wandsworth has always prided itself on setting very low tax rates. In the 1990s they even set a rate of zero pence poll tax for a couple of years. Didn't seem right or fair even then. Of course much of the rest of London paid a lot more, and I believe still do.

Wandsworth has prided itself for years in being a low-tax borough, and was able to set bills for zero pence for two years running in the early 1990s during the days of the poll tax.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/wandsworth-sets-lowest-council-tax-in-britain-6980232.html%3famp

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 12:01

One where their position would potentially be untenable if the political winds blew the right way. It would potentially spring a GE.

In circumstances where the current ruling party might be afraid that the wind was turning in that direction, you might start to prepare the country for an unexpected GE.

You might also expect the opposition to be doing everything to fan those flames in the prevailing wind. You would think it somewhat peculiar if they did not.

Is that where we are?

No. I don't think we are. I think its normal local election dynamic, at the moment. I think what happens after May will be more interesting.

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Hasenstein · 01/04/2018 12:11

RTB

"I am stunned by the idea that a Band D property in central London only pays £750 in council tax."

So am I. Why on earth are central London boroughs paying so little in comparison with the rest of the country?

This map shows the spread in England.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/12062498/Mapped-do-you-live-in-a-high-council-tax-area.html

I have no idea why some of the poorer areas have the highest council tax rates; perhaps someone more knowledgable that me (i.e. practically everyone) could explain the logic behind this. It can't be purely based on property prices, as these are lower in some of the highest-rated areas. And I can't see how it's based on services provision, as there can't be such huge disparities in cost from one area to another and I don't see any of the high rate areas being oases of excellent services. I live in a high rate zone, but our roads are still in an awful state, the local library is under pressure and our bins aren't emptied daily.

And, as you say, many central London boroughs are down at the lower end, despite property prices being astronomical and services being constrained, but no worse than elsewhere . Does anyone have an idiot's guide to how council tax rates are set?

thecatfromjapan · 01/04/2018 12:18

It's a very strange situation - with regard to the CA investigation - because I, too, am wondering if we will see a move towards another, early, GE.

I wonder why the Opposition aren't pushing on this? An absence of proof, as yet? A continuing over-focus on settling internal issues (the whole over-focus on the current leadership separating themselves from New Labour)?

As for Wandworth - well, the low council tax has been its thing. And it looks as though its going to be the undoing of the Conservatives in Wandsworth.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2018 12:19

I find myself longing for the days when Harold Wilson was suspected of being a soviet plant ....

thecatfromjapan · 01/04/2018 12:20

Innocent days, DG, innocent days ...

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 12:23

This really strikes me, that there is a real issue with local taxation. Its not based on need. I know that in my borough the places that pay most council tax are the places with the highest council tax. That's absurd to me.

That can't help land values at all. Who does that benefit?

It makes me start to wonder whether the whole thing needs to be looked at. Especially if you consider that social demographics mean there are 'old areas' and 'young areas' now, which has big consequences for social care provision.

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lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 12:24

It's just weird in Wandsworth neighbouring boroughs are:

Lambeth Band D £1,310.34

Hammersmith Band D £1,007.83

Richmond Band D is £1,638.54

thecatfromjapan · 01/04/2018 12:32

Well, yesterday was the anniversary of the Poll Tax Riot. People rioted because it was a very, very unfair form of taxation. The council tax is the modified form of the Poll Tax - and it is still unfair, with an ideological dimension. Yes - it does hit the poorest, hardest.

Poorer areas have higher needs - and a smaller base from which to raise revenues: the two things go together, obviously.

In theory, some of the shortfall can be claimed back from central government but, as we know, that has been cut back and cut back - 'austerity' as a programme was rolled out to be delivered, largely, by local authorities, at a local level, who had increasingly reduced autonomy as to if and how they rolled out austerity.

So you end up with a situation where the poorest areas are going to really struggle (high needs, low tax base).

And all served up with a dollop of the ideology of it all being about 'choice': the people can 'choose' which borough/local authority to live in; and people's 'choice' will determine how local authorities go about balancing their budgets.

It's a similar situation to the one in schools, to be honest, especially as academisation has meant many schools pulled out of the 'shared pot'/LEA approach to financing.

Anyway, looks as though the wheels are coming off the bus a bit. Not a riot but Northamptonshire going bust and Wandsworth going red.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 12:39

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-mp-faces-sinister-inquiry-mr36m6p3m?shareToken=d0d2fa979149aa0392a047d4729c37a1
Tory MP faces ‘sinister’ inquiry

The parliamentary commissioner for standards has launched an investigation into a Tory MP after he held an event with feminists who are opposed to planned transgender legislation.

David Davies, MP for Monmouth, called the inquiry “sinister” and “unbelievable” and said parliamentary rules were being “abused” by transgender activists to deny freedom of speech.

WTAF??

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thecatfromjapan · 01/04/2018 12:40

For my money, post-Brexit, council tax is going to be an issue that explodes. There is going to be a pressing necessity to re-organise UK-wide funding if the GDP predictions are anywhere near correct. And it's going to be brutal.

mrsreynolds · 01/04/2018 12:45

I was there
(Well in a pub around the corner!)

Our CTax has just gone up by 5% (to pay for a parish council vanity project)

5% rise and we have now have; No library. Surestart centre closed. Many services (like hospital transport) now provided by volunteers. 2500 new homes built but none of the promised infrastructure like new schools or new Dr surgery.

Good value eh?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2018 12:49

especially as academisation has meant many schools pulled out of the 'shared pot'/LEA approach to financing.

This didn't just start recently. Academies are well known. See Voluntary Controlled Schools, the majority of which are CofE or Catholic Schools. That's one of the reasons they are popular and tend to be in more wealthy areas.

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