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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
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HesterThrale · 01/04/2018 07:31

..."respectable" people who would be outraged at most other forms of racism somehow don't recognise anti-semitism. *
Bigchoc
I would say that misogyny is not noticed or recognised by many people in the same way. As a woman, I'm no longer sure the Labour Party is sticking up for me. And I can't believe I'm saying that.

Peregrina · 01/04/2018 08:05

As a woman, I'm no longer sure the Labour Party is sticking up for me.

I am not sure that they ever fully did. I don't think they have been particularly supportive of women's strike actions, for example. Haven't there been recent strikes with dinner ladies and cleaners that Labour hasn't shown much interest in? I agree that now it's more difficult with anti-union legislation, than it used to be.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:13

Hester Hate crimes agains women - beatings, rape, murder - have sadly never been regarded as hate crimes by the public or politicians

Imagine a country where one half of the population belongs to a tribe which commits such a disproportionate % of violence and discrimination against the tribe of the other half.
We'd regard that country as vile, especially if they didn't properly acknowledge the sufferings of the oppressed tribe.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:19

btw, wrt union legislation:
the government has more stringent requirements for a union to legally strike - iirc, 40% support of all those eligible to vote - than for a decision to tear up 45 years of trade and economic policy

Leavers didn't win 40% of eligible voters, so Brexit would not have been allowed if held to the standards that trade unions must follow

HesterThrale · 01/04/2018 08:20

Agreed Bigchoc and Peregrina. A sad indictment of our society and political system.
However I do think there's a bit of a squirrel element here. I don't think the Tories support me, or other sections of society, either. Are they just better at hiding it, manipulating the news, pointing the finger at others or other diversionary tactics?

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 08:28

I do think there's a bit of a squirrel element here.

So do I. It just seems that the Tories should be at their lowest with dirty money ( and worse) getting closer and closer to Gove and to the ref.

Yet the press and social media and even MN are focussed on Labour, anti semitism, self id, inequality and harassment.

Is it because there's such Tory squalor that everyone looks to the gap where labour should be, or is it squirrelling?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:31

Times / YouGov Poll of Labour members on anti-semitism

NOT Labour voters, just members, so oresumably the most committed 700k of Labour supporters.
They apparently have no wish for Corbyn or the hard left to change

  • 19% think that anti-semitism in the party is a serious and genuine problem that needs addressing.

  • 47% agree that there is a serious and genuine problem, but think that is has been exaggerated for political reasons.

  • 30% think that there is not a serious problem of anti-semitism at all.

Corbyn’s handling of the row:

  • 61% think he has responded very well / fairly well
  • 33% think very badly / fairly badly

Opinion of Corbyn:

  • 80% think he is doing well as leader

  • 19% badly

  • 64% think it is likely he will become PM sometime

  • 74% of Labour members think he should lead Labour into the next GE

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 08:31

It's worth scrolling down the front pages and seeing the top themes.

Apart from the Telegraph interestingly trying to blame the gamekeeper rather than the poacher.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 01/04/2018 08:36

Loved this tweet this morning
Europarl UK
Verified account@EPinUK
BREAKING: All EU passports to become dark blue
Grin

HesterThrale · 01/04/2018 08:40

Exactly lonelyplanetmum. And the party (or newspaper? Guardian) which claims the moral high ground is more likely to have its head above the parapet to be knocked off? (Sorry clumsy analogy!)
We do need to keep the interrogation spotlight and forensic analysis on the party in power. Don't let them get away with anything. It matters more. They're IN POWER.

Let's start with this:
Industry planning jobs cull to offset Brexit. More than 20% of manufacturers plan cuts while more than 58% plan price increases to offset costs of leaving EU.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/31/manufacturing-firms-plan-job-cuts-after-brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:48

I definitely think the alleged vote manipulation by CA is HUGE & terrifying for democracy
BUT

we may suspect, but we don't have hard evidence that the Tory party itself, or ministers or MPs, was involved or even knew about it.

  • I posted the Leave document stating that Gove, Boris & co discussed the campaign daily with the Leave org, but I can believe that anyone doing criminal activity might not have raised this at such meetings.

CA was financed by oligarchs, mostly foreign, who may well not have informed any Tory stooges - who were just spouting the usual lies about the EU - what was going on wrt FB, psy-ops, contributions and the law.

What we can say is that the Tory govt is dragging its feet when it should be top priority to organise a rapid enquiry into whether the Uk democratic process has been perverted by unscrupulous oligarchs, for purposes of looting the country

They obviously don't want to find out which Tories have been conned into working for the oligarchs - or even doing so knowingly.

Unfortunately, Leavers and many of the general the public apparently think Remain were doing the same.
A lazy attitude that means they don't have to actually examine the CA scandal, risk realising they may have been conned and also realise it is a quantum leap in Uk electoral dirty tricks which must be stopped.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:52

With Corbyn and the hard left running Labour, Brexit will be damaging whichever party is in power
That's the problem

The hard left and the hard right both have plans that require throwing off EU constraints on their actions

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 08:55

Hester that is interesting.
We don't have much reliance on manufacturing any more of course, although it is definitely part of the obsession with the older members of the Brexit camp that is partially understandable. My FIL constantly bangs on about how ' manufacturing should never have been let go '. He won't listen to globalisation explanations.

What manufacturers there are left have all been trying to absorb the costs of Brexit, and they now just can't.

The article emphasises the burden of higher prices spreading to consumers, to suppliers, to clients and reshaping supply chains, that we have talked about on these threads.

Businesses especially in supply chains won't survive but I still don't fully understand why the party of business doesn't care. I get why the Pfeffel / Grease Mogg faction doesn't care, because they personally can make money from emerging markets etc elsewhere.

However why aren't the 'normal' Tories panicked by business closures that have already happened and are predicted to?

Mistigri · 01/04/2018 08:55

Yet the press and social media and even MN are focussed on Labour, anti semitism, self id, inequality and harassment.

This is what I was trying to organise, badly, yesterday. The right hardly needs to put up a fight when it can weaponise issues that turn left on left, and centre on left.

And yet racism in the Tory party, and their many policies and allegiances that have a huge impact women's rights, do not create the same furore.

Meanwhile the loudest women's voices are occupied debating, often in very theoretical terms, a policy which at present has a mainly theoretical impact, and there are all the fewer voices left to take on real issues affecting women (universal credit probably the largest one right now in terms of the number of women affected, but also the abuse of young marginal women, the loss of legal aid for many or most cases involving women ...)

The government in power is under almost zero pressure on those issues and the reason is that the debate is being cleverly orchestrated.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 08:55

Far more hope if moderates manage to gain control of either main party
However, any kind of Brexit will be worse than what we had - even the run-up has already damaged the country

and it seems the best we can hope for is the softest possible Brexit, that aims to retain all the benefits of EU membership, but without having the previous representation.

HesterThrale · 01/04/2018 08:58

Haha Dobby that April 1st tweet made me laugh. Clever trolling. That'd show the blue passport fans how silly the whole thing is, if all EU passports became blue....UK not special/ different any more..

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:00

I posted the Leave document stating that Gove, Boris & co discussed the campaign daily with the Leave org, but I can believe that anyone doing criminal activity might not have raised this at such meetings.

There is no way they couldn't have known. Look there are daily meetings about how to use the remaining days of the ref effectively.

Some- one would say "but we are up against our spending limit".

Then very quickly more money is being spent.

At the very least the MPs, all of them Gove,Pfeffel, Gisela Stuart, Farage had 'blind eye' knowledge which is culpable.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:02

With respect to blue passports I so wish the EU was immature enough to propose this!

Can you imagine the tabloid headlines?

woman11017 · 01/04/2018 09:09

debate is being cleverly orchestrated
So we don't look at this either:

Then very quickly more money is being spent
@JolyonMaugham
Their conduct is the best guide to how worried they are. Cummings, Vote Leave' Campaign Director, wrote three posts in two weeks attacking me. Matthew Elliott, VL's CE, attacked me on Friday. Today they are attacking the EC. They are constantly after Carol C. They are worried.

Pretty sustained/ organised attacks on many of those who are campaigning to stop brexit atm.

Peregrina · 01/04/2018 09:14

I believe that in Norway, you have a choice of cover - this is obviously what being free of the EU means.

Or it would be really funny if each EU country decided to go back to their old colours - Germany had green, I think.

Peregrina · 01/04/2018 09:17

Pretty sustained/ organised attacks on many of those who are campaigning to stop brexit atm.

It can backfire, as with last year's "Corbyn is a vote loser" campaign - they over egged it, and he trashed the Tory majority.
Green friends, who are no lovers of Labour, all feel that much of this is a campaign to smear Corbyn.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 09:17

Imo, the Tory party has always prioritised the rich and - except for a brief interlude under McMillan - has always tried to reduce paying to support the less well off
It has always included significant racism against people of colour.

Anti-semitism has been rare in the party since at least 1980 - I remember one leading Jewish figure expressing pride that 20% of MrsT's cabinet was Jewish.
btw, the sexism charge is difficult to make stick when they are on their 2nd woman leader and Labour have no prospect of even their first.

Labour used to be a beacon of social progress, the protector of working class people, as it was founded to be.
Now however, it is increasing policies & attitudes which harm women & girls - especially working class ones - and which increasingly target Jewish people.

If we ignore what Labour is turning into, it will become too entrenched to change easily, as well as doing a lot of damage in the years until it is deemed acceptable to point out its flaws.

Listen to working class people when they voted in the referendum and in the GE

They are increasingly abandoning Labour and switching to the Tories, because they are actively angry at Labour.
They are currently not willing to close their eyes to flaws they hate.
Don't assume you know better than they do what is affecting their lives - at least listen to why this is happening

Otherwise, the Tories will be in power for a generation and the Welfare state will be barely existent.

Mistigri · 01/04/2018 09:19

Regarding anti-semitism.

The tropes and the dog whistles used by parts of the far left and far right are really very similar. On the far right, there is of course more overt racism towards Muslims than towards Jews (with notable exceptions when you reach the nazi fringes) - but you don't have to look very hard for the antisemitism and it usually takes the same form as on the left: "Soros", "Rothschild" used as code words for "Jewish bankers" (the most widely-used criticism of Macron by both left and right was that he had worked for a Jewish owned bank and didn't his nose look suspiciously Jewish?) - and the implication that governments are working for a Jewish elite.

These people are often too naive, stupid or tone deaf to realise what they are saying but they are orchestrated by people on both right and left who very certainly do.

In the Labour Party the issue is complicated by pro Palestinian activism by people who, I genuinely believe, often do not hold anti-Semitic views at all (unless opposing the actions of a repressive Jewish state is automatically racist). These people don't tend to dog whistle but they are often not careful enough in how their express their views on an extremely sensitive issue. But then most people are not accustomed to writing for a living, and often people do express themselves clumsily. There is a genuine danger that this issue deters people from talking about real human rights issues because they fear the mob.

I don't feel at all sorry for Labour (with a few exceptions, people who have done the right thing all along) but wouldn't it be lovely if the Tories also had to face the Spanish Inquisition about racists in the party? Including anti-semites: let's not forget the MP who went to a Nazi dress up party and didn't even have to resign! Or the Tory press-led antisemitic attacks on Ed from not so long ago.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 09:19

How has Labour become estranged from a significant part of the working class ?

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2018 09:20

Also I just like throwing my random thoughts out -then they are off my chest.

  1. The way to handle the CA crisis is to show strength. Introduce laws banning use of psychographic profiling in elections. Call an enquiry. Then call a confirmatory non advisory referendum on the final deal.

If any politician has deep faith that their values,decisions,policy and governing are correct then they wouldn't be frightened of any of those things.

2.On my thread reading catch up yesterday I noticed someone said they thought the PM was s genuine feminist. Yes she has a big job but there's something about her that makes me think she isn't. I remembered the 2017 breakfast tv interview when she mentioned "There's boy jobs and girl jobs you see." But she was joking then. I think it's that she reminds me of a Uni friend I had, whose Dad was also a vicar. This friend professed feminism yet supported the no ordination of women stance!

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