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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 22:18

It's probably because I've always been centrist, not left, not right.
So I've no party ties to break.
What Labour is doing is arousing my visceral emotions
which the Tories do slightly less.
They are both god-awful atm.

I won't vote Labour until they get a much better leader, much better policies and also clean out their Aegean stables

Reports say Labour have up to 5,000 complaints of anti-semitism
Those could take years to deal with - more likely Labour will just try to whitewash them all away

Labour peer Robert Winston has claimed that
Corbyn has "encouraged and endorsed" anti-Semites
and that hostility to Jews had "infected the Labour Party so it’s become endemic"

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 22:21

Rest of the front page goes on about Shawcroft, and response from the Labour office to this 'report'.

I can't be arsed to type it out.

I don't know why this is on the front page of the Times (well we all do, but that's not my point).

I don't need this to be in the newspaper to know about this. You just need to talk politics on social media.

And no this is not just a Labour problem. We have Leave.EU giving a cracking good example. And the likes of Johnson every time he opens his mouth.

This is so tiresome. No one takes responsibility for what they say on social media. Its 'not real'.

Blah. I'm tired, and really don't want to read any more shit.

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mrsreynolds · 31/03/2018 22:22

The party of atlee and bevan and benn.

Heartbreaking.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 22:26

I'm not surprised by any of this.

Which is terrible, isn't it?

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 22:27

Corbyn's Brexit aims are just as delusional as those of Tory Brexiters.
So, whoever carries through Brexit, it looks at best BINO, at worst a no-deal economic disaster

Hence, I judge both parties on other issues.
I would jump to support either party who dumps their leader in favour of a moderate who would go for EEA / EFTA with a Customs Union.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 22:29

oops, iPad just burped and I've seen red's posts.
Horrible and frightening

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 22:32

I hope and don't hope that these alleged pro JC FB accounts are not all genuine. This is not a labour party I recognise. Your 'canary in the coal mine' post yesterday BCF was so powerful, so true.

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 22:33

Russia chose well though, I'll give them that.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 22:33

I hope there are a lot of people like you, BigChoc - and I hope we get to a stage where the main political parties have to listen to that.

We'll have to see how the local elections play out but keep on pressuring.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 22:36

I've noticed this increasing Hitler fandom online from the left too.
Why ?
How ?
How long has this been going on (at this level) ?

and no, I won't close my eyes and vote Labour.
There are too many serious things wrong

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 22:40

How long has this been going on (at this level
Well........

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 22:42

Enemies of the People Part 34653523

In this episode the Torygraph goes after the traitorous Electoral Commission for not investigating the losing Remain campaign.

yawn

Haven't we had this story about 6 times this week already? Why is this on the front page? Were the Torygraph short on column inches this week.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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Icantreachthepretzels · 31/03/2018 22:43

Is there any chance that this cumulative affect of anti-semitism stories will force Corbyn to stand down? Would that be the best thing for everybody - if labour got a caretaker leader, Corbyn went back to the backbenches and his cult of personality dissipated? Then labour could get on with opposing - and the tory rebels would be so much less afraid of a labour government that they might start cracking the whip against TM harder - applying as much if not more pressure than the ERG.

Sadly I don't believe Corbyn will stand down off his own bat - and as 2016 proved, you can't oust him. But maybe it really would be best for the whole country if he just shuffled off back to his allotment.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 22:45

Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham
Matthew Elliott, Vote Leave's Chief Executive, admitting on Friday that if the Electoral Commission or courts find against them, the result is unsafe.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 22:49

Is there any chance that this cumulative affect of anti-semitism stories will force Corbyn to stand down
None that I can see.

But maybe it really would be best for the whole country if he just shuffled off back to his allotment.
There are lots of other people on the left of the Party who could be leader. The problem many see is not a lot of the policies, (where he has them). Why not one of these other people in the party without so much baggage?

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thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 22:58

Well, I thought there was no chance Shawcroft would be standing down so ... although this morning, I'd have said 'No,' this evening I'm believing in the power of pressure ...

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 22:59

I don't think this wave of revelations is going to be what does it, though.

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 23:02

Anti semitism wins votes like the 'Go Home' vans did for May. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 23:11

Leading Jewish donor ditches Labour over antisemitism

He claims the situation has worsened greatly over the last 2 years, under Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/31/labour-jewish-donor-michael-garrard-quits-party-antisemitism

“I have watched with dismay and foreboding the manner in which the leadership has, in my view, over the last two years, conducted itself.

“I consider that it has supported and endorsed the most blatant acts of antisemitism.

And yet it has failed to expel many of those who have engaged in the grossest derogatory fantasies about Jewish/Zionist conspiracies – and Jewish characterisations and accusations
which conjure up the very kind of antisemitic attacks that led to such unbearable consequences for innocent millions in the past.

So there no longer exists a party which even pretends to maintain and promote the principles and the integrity of what always was, to me, the Labour party.

“On the contrary,
I have been witnessing, since Mr Corbyn became leader, a philosophical and a political policy which espouses, in nearly every respect, the very antithesis of the great party
under whose reputation, and under whose flag, it now seeks to fly and where so many other Jews were once so proud to stand.”

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 23:16

Unfortunately, I agree that anti-semitism is a favourite tool of populists … because it is so effective to recruit haters

and because "respectable" people who would be outraged at most other forms of racism somehow don't recognise anti-semitism.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 31/03/2018 23:22

and because "respectable" people who would be outraged at most other forms of racism somehow don't recognise anti-semitism.
A friend of mine was saying something similar earlier. Sadly that the average man on the street won't be bothered by it in the same way as they may by racism against coloured people not that the average man on the street round our way is bothered about that either

ALittleAubergine · 31/03/2018 23:26

Hateful messages and threats are of course completely deplorable from whatever source.

I do wonder if labour are doing surprisingly well or tories doing surprisingly badly in the polls? Maybe the tory lead is not comfortable enough? Whatever it is, doesn't look like the next elections will be decided by policies. Maybe they never were.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 23:38

I suspect that the anti-semitism isn't there because it's a vote winner.

Let's face it, it's not working as a vote winner, is it?

And it has never been any part of official Labour policies.

I think it's been more that it's been something people have 'tolerated' because of 'bigger issues' (and there will have been a range of 'bigger issues' over the years - from anti-Western Imperialism, to the need separate from New Labour and all its works, to the need to prove leftier-than-thou, to the need to protect the New Leftist Project).

And I think it's been more of an issue in the hard left, precisely because they haven't been in the centre of power until very, very recently.

And it's been enabled by the dynamics of the 'Corbyn cult'. And I mean that: the whole setting up of a dynamic of a group within a group, whose identity is partly founded on the idea that they are under siege from 'rightist forces' created a fertile ground in which this would flourish.

There are other factors, but that's part of how this wasn't stopped earlier.

It's an object lesson that you have to retain criticality and the right to say "No - this is not my 'progressive'."

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 23:39

won't be bothered by it in the same way is why it works. JC knows that.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 01/04/2018 00:02

is why it works. JC knows that.
That was my friend's point, I should have added that.
Its pretty horrendous to know that.