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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 00:02

The Times stuff shows that Corbyn is doing well amongst his own. But not with Centrist types within the party.

At this point, I start to ask the question, are all the positive scores that a reflection of centrists leaving the party? That could spell trouble for Corbyn. If he only appeals to his core membership and centrist types are alienated or doubting. That 'don't know' column.

We know that Corbyn has consolidated power within the party. That's not a surprise. The thing is that, the right wing press can drop as many dead cats as they like, it won't affect the core. It might affect the undecided centre though.

Corbyn is actively alienating the centre - he certainly will never compromise with it (that does not bode well if he becomes PM and hits the wall of reality). And the party is in danger of becoming an echo chamber.

The fact they can not see the anti-Semitism and continue to assume its a right wing conspiracy, smacks of their own arrogance.

They are taking the gamble that they can do anything and still be viewed as 'better than the Tories'. I suspect that will be the eventual campaign strategy focusing on hope, whilst subtly playing done how this attacks the Tories. And pushing this 'liberal identity' shit.

I'm not sure how well that will play out with people who now think its a con job and already feel lied to.

He really needs a bloody good kicking in the May Locals. For everyone's sake.

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RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 01:26

I've seen various comments on the subject of porn and incest and trans kids / the left wing media on twitter over the last few days. This is a bit of a mishmash of them, but it should give you a very clear idea of thought processes going on here. This is a bit of a brain splurge of various strands of thought going on in politics in general, so I hope this makes sense to someone else. Its late and its thought diarrhea:

Janice Turner @VictoriaPeckham
Pink News thinks incest is fine because it’s a popular porn trope. Unbelievable.

Sister Outrider @ClaireShrugged
Normalising incest is a new low for Pink News. And this reckless reporting buys into the homophobic myth that being gay is inherently perverted.
Why can't gay or lesbian twins have sex of marry each other? Why is incest wrong between same sex siblings

Monica Larkin @mrsovary
I’m going to sound about 902 years of age here but there’s a real push for the elimination of sexual limits and it’s getting more prominent. Boundaries are healthy and keep people (women and children especially) safe.

Lisa Muggeridge @lisamuggeridge3
Does @PinkNews know that incest is largely a crime where adult males abuse female and male children? Not a lifestyle choice?

-----

Lisa Muggeridge @lisamuggeridge3
That understanding the systems around child abuse is now 'terfism' is interesting, cos we dont figure the needs of adults in the centre of those questions, no matter how distressed the adult. Adults offended by this are interesting to me.
The phenomena of adult activists trying to shape medical treatment for kids, and demanding it exist outside our wider understanding of childhood and adolescence and safeguarding, while demanding the end of safeguarding structures, is quite interesting. But only a bit.
Always pay attention to adults who demand that we treat safeguarding children as an insult to their identity. Really.

------

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/30/congress-online-sex-trafficking-bill-impact-sex-workers-craigslist
Scrubbed clean: why a certain kind of sex is vanishing from the internet

Lisa Muggeridge @lisamuggeridge3
What is wrong with you @guardian? Craigslist was being used for industrial levels of child trafficking. Children's bodies were being sold. How can you justify this? How?
Will @guardian be sending journos to Bradford and Telford to ask who has been mildly inconvenienced by our newfound understanding that industrialised child sex trafficking is bad? I mean really? WTAF is wrong over there?
[rtb note: the guardian were offered the Telford story but refused to run it, which is why it ended up in the Mail]

Its the apparently complete absence of any type of base moral consideration. I cannot account for the utter sociopathy of @PinkNews and @guardian. Its so far beyond normal or even understandable. Its not just misogyny, its something else.

Its getting quite difficult to get away from the way @PinkNews and @guardian feel about child abuse. Or rather that they dont understand the notion of abuse at all, in fact see it as desirable if its the right people being abused.

Its the extent to which working class children and women exist to be abused in @guardian's eyes. I dont understand it, I cant grasp it. They mean it.

What Craigslist was used for should be shocking to anyone its inconceivable the way girls were sold through there and yet all @guardian see is inconvenience? How?

I have met people from @guardian. Its deep rooted culturally. THey CANNOT view a woman like me or my daughter as human beings, They literally could not do it. Cannot see it. Its actually disturbing.

The @guardian KNEW about the exploitation in places like Telford, just didnt see those girls as human, same with austerity, the women paying for it were not human to them. It is extraordinary and unexplainable. @KathViner

Julia Morgan @MorganScorpion
Because they are of the class that buys sex, not the class that sells it.

Lisa Muggeridge @lisamuggeridge3
The number of 'sex workers' complainin gto the @guardian about why a move to stop 12 year olds being sold to hundreds of adult men inconveniences them should tell you a great deal about the sex 'industry' and how it is structured.

Its like there is something at @guardian where they cannot see that injury and violence felt by working class children and women is violence. They just cant see it. Dont know they are people.
@kathviner Just dont know.
I have to be honest @KathViner I really want to understand why the @guardian feels teh way it does about working class women and female children, because I cant fathom it. I just cant.
Is it just inability to perceive that british women and children have the same rights and you didnt realise enfranchisement had reached working class women and children or it is it actual malice?
With austerity you would be saying what every person you knew already knew, if women cant afford to leave abuse they are trapped there, and you would just get blank looks. @guardian
Austerity undermined 70 years of safeguarding and equality legislation cos the class around the @guardian including university I just attended, didnt even know these legal frameworks existed, mattered or were supposed to be a boundary.
With this TRA stuff, it should actually be a LOT simpler than it is, but the @guardian and @PinkNews needed their misogyny amplifying and thought trans people were a way to do it.
The absolute inability to perceive that women and children's boundaries, that women's safety, should even be reflected in law is astonishing with this class of people. They think they are above it.
In 2010 I couldnt understand how you could just roll back equality, and then I spent 8 years finding out a class exist who see the rule of law that shapes the rest of us, as an optional for them. THey dont need to be aware of. @kathviner @guardian
Maybe its because I am not from their class but I dont understand how you can be completely oblivious to the basic rule of law regarding safeguarding, sexual assault, coercion, domestic abuse. @kathviner @guardian
The TRA stuff is no more complex than sex exists, and we now need a new classification for gender identity in addition, but look what it has been turned into? Wow.
Virulent misogyny and anti-semitism is coming directly from the same source, a hyper privileged overeducated and extremely stupid mediating class. Labour, LSE Guardian, the whole shitshow needs to tumble for this to change.
I actually cannot fathom a human being with a normal functioning psyche, looking at the Craigslist saga and worrying about how inconvenient it is for the sex industry for people to give a toss about those women and kids. @guardian @KathViner
I feel kind of bad for the young radical lefties I was angry with for not knowing what austerity would do, but they were largely just reflecting their class. Who didnt give a fuck.
I think at @guardian and LSE level they saw enfranchisement of the working class as a temporary inconvenience to service them and never fathomed that meant power was not theirs. They didnt realise enfranchisement meant working class people had the vote.
The tension between narratives sold by @guardian and @pinknews and our basic understanding of child abuse is getting really disturbing. Am sorry but it really is. There is something seriously weird here.

I THINK mutteridge is / was a social worker or something similar.

I think in terms of social media, and efforts to get Gender Critical women banned on twitter - and silence debates like this - and the comments by the facebook executive in the buzzfeed article this is important stuff to look in the eye:
[[www.buzzfeed.com/ryanmac/growth-at-any-cost-top-facebook-executive-defended-data?utm_term=.poVnB0E2QM#.qrV2eJ5DYj
Growth At Any Cost: Top Facebook Executive Defended Data Collection In 2016 Memo — And Warned That Facebook Could Get People Killed]]

Again the dehumanising of people, coming from sources perceived to be left wing. (Noting here that fascism is thought to be the product of capitalism and the military coming together - so social media being used as Psy Ops is relevant here. In theory, I would propose it possible to get a left wing hybrid fascism - which is exactly what some on the right have been saying).

I also note that it was Tommy Robinson who first started to bring the abuse in Rochdale to light.

If we are not very careful, we are setting ourselves up for a terrible swing to the far left followed by a horrendous backlash to the far right.

A posted by the name of Daff0dil put this on a trans related thread earlier today:

In the midst of Carol Caldewaller's long read about Cambridge Analytica is this interesting quote:

"A few months later, in autumn 2013, Wylie met Steve Bannon. At the time, he was editor-in-chief of Breitbart, which he had brought to Britain to support his friend Nigel Farage in his mission to take Britain out of the European Union.
What was he like?
“Smart,” says Wylie. “Interesting. Really interested in ideas. He’s the only straight man I’ve ever talked to about intersectional feminist theory. He saw its relevance straightaway to the oppressions that conservative, young white men feel.”

I have seen this elsewhere too. That Trump is credited with winning amongst a lot of women because of a direct backlash relating to trans rights. It is interesting to see it pop up as a deliberate target point.

When Corbyn's Labour party are so utterly blind to anti-Semitism, it only serves to help a push to the far right.

This is the culture war. See it for what it is and suspend your concept of what you think is liberal and tribal loyalty to political party.

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RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 01:29

Brocialism is not socialism.
Its not progressive and liberal.
It has more in common with fascism.

And I don't know how to get the point across about the difference and how dangerous this really is.

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ALittleAubergine · 31/03/2018 06:05

Unable to sleep so did a little bit of reading into the sex trafficking bill as per the mutteridge tweet. I have no doubt that she feels strongly about it but it seems notable to me that there are trafficking survivor networks and advocacy groups who oppose to the bill as it is or haven't expressed support for it. You would think they welcome it as a big step towards eradication of trafficking.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 31/03/2018 07:39

Reading your long post on corbyn and the polls really evoked trump with his core base. I am finding it alarming there appears to be an increasing number of parallels to be drawn between trump and corbyn (this isn’t letting May off the hook - she revealed her authoritarian ways awhile ago) but the fact that everyone in politics is so comfortable outing their power grabbing quests and isn’t even trying very hard to pretend otherwise does not bode well.

Peregrina · 31/03/2018 07:47

Sorry, I think a diatribe against the Guardian is the wrong target. I don't think they are anything like as liberal as they would like to think they are, and they have far too many privately educated staff working for them to begin to understand how most of the country live, but, they are still a million times better than the Torygraph.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 31/03/2018 07:47

Yesterday morning

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
How interesting. @michaelgove has leaked an email I sent him to @GuidoFawkes. Is this normal behaviour for a government minister?
(link: order-order.com/2018/03/29/cadwalladrs-sunday-scoop-top-remainer-paid-aiq/ ) via @GuidoFawkes

Any comment, @michaelgove?
And while you're there: @shahmiruk says you knew BeLeave was used an overspending vehicle to break our electoral laws. Could you comment on that too?

You were the co-convener of Vote Leave. And @shahmiruk says he & @darrengrimes_ were cynically used. The £625,000 never even hit their bank accounts. What did you know @michaelgove?

news.sky.com/story/amp/michael-gove-denies-knowledge-of-vote-leave-spending-breach-11306680

In the early hours this morning:

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Hello @michaelgove. You’re news. To be clear I actually reported you to the Committee for Standards in Public Life. And the cabinet secretary @HeadUKCivServ.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-gove-reported-watchdog-over-12278582

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 07:53

You have to wonder who is behind those groups, and you really have to sit down and look hard at the bill and dig into the background of all the opinions for and against.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 07:55

(That was in response to Aubergine's comment of Sat 31-Mar-18 06:05:15).

Thank you for that post, RTB. ( RedToothBrush Sat 31-Mar-18 01:26:43).

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 31/03/2018 08:08

Cambridge Analytica's Fossil Fuel Connections

Several key directors at Cambridge Analytica's parent company have direct connections to the fossil fuel industry, records show.motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gymvaw/cambridge-analyticas-fossil-fuel-connections-scl-group

[some excerpts but the whole thing is interesting]

[...]But several key directors at Cambridge Analytica's parent company, SCL Group, also have close ties to the fossil fuel industry, according to business records filed with the British government, fossil fuel company presentations obtained by Motherboard, and employee LinkedIn pages.

The connections show that, yet again, there is often crossover between fossil fuel interests and politically focused firms.

Big coal

[...]British company records, however, show that SCL Elections had another director, Christian Patrick Teroerde, who joined the company just months after it was incorporated. Teroerde went on to hold a one-year director role at SCL Elections from February 2013 to 2014.

Teroerde’s position coincided with a simultaneous role he held at another company, Hanson Asset Management, where he has been co-founding managing director since 2010.

Hanson Asset Management was set-up to manage the wealth of the Hanson family, whose fortune was built under the leadership of the late Lord James Hanson—a Thatcherite industrialist who donated millions to the Conservative Party. Tereorde works directly under Lord Hanson’s son, Robert, who chairs the board.

One of the major contributors to Lord Hanson’s wealth was the burgeoning American coal industry.

Among Hanson’s major acquisitions, for instance, was the Peabody Holding Company, the largest coal producer in the United States in the 1990s. The firm was sold and grew into Peabody Energy—now the largest private-sector coal company in the world.

In April 2016, Peabody filed for bankruptcy due to plummeting coal prices. Trump’s election victory, which Cambridge Analytica helped target ads for, turned Peabody’s imminent collapse around. One day after Trump’s win, Peabody shares surged by over 50 percent, and six months later the global coal giant came out of bankruptcy.

Cambridge Analytica’s connection to Hanson’s wealth appears to have been close during that founding year. The company correspondence address for Teroerde’s directorship at SCL Elections was the same address as Hanson Asset Management, meaning he essentially fulfilled his duties to the company from the Hanson office.

Big Oil

[...]One such company is Phi Energy Group, a short-lived oil venture where Wheatland was a director from 2014 to 2016. According to an internal company presentation deck, Phi Energy’s focus was “exploring opportunities” in Libya, the US, Africa and Eastern Europe.

[...]According to Kreimeia’s LinkedIn profile, he was a “non-executive director” of Hatton International from 2012 to 2016. That profile not only refers to Hatton’s work “with defence and aerospace companies”, but further describes how Hatton “supports client companies, particularly in the energy industry, to develop financing strategies that will deliver the strategic objectives and help bring new products and propositions to market.”

The regions where Phi Energy/Hatton’s energy work was carried out include Iraq and Libya, both subjected to US-UK military interventions.

Kreimeia’s Phi Energy bio, for instance, depicts him as a key player in negotiating refining agreements in key Middle East countries, specifically assisting major EU refineries in negotiations with the Libyan National Oil Company (LNOC), the Iraqi State Oil Marketing Company and the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG). [ is this similar to the private colonisation wylie talked about? ]

Climate denialism

An investigation by DeSmogUK reveals that Cambridge Analytica is also embedded in a web of power denying climate change. Besides the Mercer funding, Cambridge Analytica has numerous ties to Vote Leave, the official British campaign to leave the European Union, which was chock full of politicians who rejected climate science.

Vote Leave was run by Dominic Cummings, a former head of strategy for the Conservative Party. The Vote Leave campaign paid £3.5m for Facebook profiling and advertising to AggregateIQ, a Canadian firm which had secretly licensed its data tools to SCL Elections.

Cummings is also connected to SCL Elections and Hanson Asset Management director Patrick Teroerde, through Lord Hanson. From 1999 to 2002, Cummings had run the anti-EU ‘Business for Sterling’ business lobby, founded by Lord Hanson. Neither Teroerde nor Cummings could be reached for comment.

The pro-fossil fuels agenda of the Vote Leave campaign was no secret.

One senior Vote Leave committee member, Andrea Leadsom, currently Leader of the House of Commons and previously energy and climate minister, admitted to questioning climate change science when she first got her ministerial job. During the Brexit campaign, she was aligned with a pressure group agitating for more fossil fuels and less renewables.

Two other Conservative politicians who supported Vote Leave, Owen Paterson and Matt Ridley, are “well-known allies of the UK’s most prominent climate science denial campaign group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation,” according to DeSmogUK.

And so we come full circle. Cambridge Analytica’s political associations with the Trump campaign in the US, and the Brexit campaign in the EU, overlap directly with the firm’s ties to major oil and gas companies and anti-science campaigning to deny climate change.

The story of this firm’s massive breach of Facebook to manipulate public opinion is not just about the increasing impunity of giant technology companies, nor their capacity to allow nefarious entities to interfere in our fragile democracies from outside.

It is about how technology has been used to subvert democracy from within—not by foreign powers—but by increasingly unaccountable corporate power, including those tied to the rampant exploitation of oil, gas and coal. It’s power that continues to hold great sway over governments on both sides of the Atlantic.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 08:18

Peregina, you just did it too:
"That racism is ok because its not as bad as that racism over there."

The Guardian IS right on lots of things. But its taken The Daily Mail to expose Telford.

My point is more that we NEED a multitude of voices and newspapers. This is a good example of where the Guardian's middle class blind spot is. The whole 'we've had enough of experts' comes from this type of article, where there is a total lack of self awareness as to how an issue is really affecting people.

It is not so much an attack on the Guardian as an attack on our unwillingness to look in the mirror at ourselves critically, in order to grow and learn.

At times the guardian really does disappear so far up its own arse as to render itself totally blind to core issues around a subject. Instead it offers a shiny vision of the world which simply fits its readers tastes.

At the moment I do find the guardian very guilty of missing core issues and debates which it should be covering if it is truly as committed to journalist standards as it professes to be.

The real purpose and point of journalism is to get to the heart of an issue. Not to just repeat the part of an issue that fits with a particular world view and editorial line.

I understand the Guardian has a political leaning, but just as with the daily mail, if uncritical adherence to that line at all times must be followed, then its failure in journalism needs to also be called out as much as it should be praised for where it does do good work. No one is perfect, criticism can be a constructive issue rather than simply a moaning criticism.

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BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 08:27

This sentence from red's link is so important:

"Always pay attention to adults who demand that we treat safeguarding children as an insult to their identity"

and yes, almost all papers have a certain bias,
but that bias always seems to include pushing policies that hammer women & girls and the poorest of the wc.

Sometimes, they just seem different viewpoints pushed out from under the MRA umbrella

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 08:28

Why must criticism politically always be met with a cavet that something isn't as bad as something else. Just taken the criticism on the chin rather than making it competitive and turning it into a comment on others failings. You can do something about your own problem. Making it about others, is an abdication of responsibility and a lack of willingness to affect change where you do have the power and capacity to learn and improve on a situation.

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Peregrina · 31/03/2018 08:37

Peregina, you just did it too:
"That racism is ok because its not as bad as that racism over there."

That wasn't my intention. My concern with an attack on the Guardian, (which exasperates me much of time), as with the continued attacks on Corbyn, (who I am no particular fan of), is that it's divide and rule. The big stink at the moment is Cambridge Analytica and what exactly did people like Gove and the official Leave campaign know. So let's stir up anything vaguely left wing, so that they start fighting amongst themselves and we the rabid right get away with their poisonous deeds. The right wing papers are strangely silent about Cambridge Analytica.

Peregrina · 31/03/2018 08:39

Sorry, I muddled ours and their . So let's stir up is supposed to be the rabid right talking, hence it should be our deeds.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 08:53

Peregina, I am absolutely conscious of that. But if Labour make that easy to do and are the cloth eared then it plays to the far right in the long run anyway. Thats my point. You can't let Labour off the hook for its own willful blindness.

The dynamic of CA and social media and lure/threat of the far right is coming from more than one angle.

We have to see this.

My hope is for the local elections to give a kicking for Lab and the Cons for that reason. To force some self reflection. I fear it won't happen.

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RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 09:01

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-has-been-lost-to-fools-and-crackpots-hlv783z7j?shareToken=4e3854337cf0a7df0efa5e8d8fde595e
Labour has been lost to fools and crackpots
My party is led by a man who prefers to entrench division on every occasion instead of searching for common ground

By Janice Turner.

Its the full article unpaywalled. Pretty much on the same subject.

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BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 09:10

One of the many problems with Corbyn and increasing spread of the hard left within Labour
is that they provide several closets of skeletons
which can be brought out to distract & outrage whenever a scandal about the right emerges

Also, it splits the resources of Remain voters, who have to fight on several fronts, because anti-semitism and self-Id are far too important to ignore until Brexit is settled (which may be 10 years +)

This is particularly important re CA, imo the biggest political scandal since at least post-WW2,
because it goes to the heart of trying to remain a democratic society

The country as a whole is paying far too little attention to the implications
Leave voters are battening down the hatches and Labour scandals give them th justifications they want

Swinging the votes matters and can change governments, especially in countries where voters have been primed by decades of hard right media hate stories.

The oligarchs are moulding society to benefit them, not the 99.99%
First were decades of hard right media; now CA is the newest tool, far more sophisticated
and maybe its use has stepped over some laws, before the oligarchs could completely fix those laws

  • this is our best chance to stop them
Violetparis · 31/03/2018 09:13

I agree with you Red on The Guardian, it has endless articles and columns on the #metoo movement, Harvey Weinstein, The Presidents Club, sexism in Hollywood and politics etc but there is little outrage when it comes to working class girls in Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham etc.

Peregrina · 31/03/2018 09:27

I agree with you Red on The Guardian
Which is something of a tragedy for a paper with Manchester origins. I

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 09:27

Im having this conversation in parallel on two threads as I think its really crucial and I thought it would get different responses in feminism.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3208816-a-certain-kind-of-sex-is-vanishing-from-the-internet

I don't want to copy and paste LangCleg's post from 9.17 for that reason. Its very good and I very much am concerned about the same.

There is a threat from divide and rule tactics but there is also a threat from middle class self absorption and blindness.

Both are real. Both are important.

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Peregrina · 31/03/2018 09:36

I see there are some arguments which are the same on that thread. Without wanting to start a thread about a thread, one person said that she was concerned about the loss of the voice of the dispossessed, the traditional working class and within that, women and girls who are considered the "underclass" by most services and people.

I would ask here, when did the women and girls of the dispossessed, ever have a voice? There is no use looking to Labour to give them one, traditionally they have been very male dominated.

BTW these days, I mostly buy the Guardian for the puzzles. DB has stopped buying it after many years.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 09:44

I would ask here, when did the women and girls of the dispossessed, ever have a voice? There is no use looking to Labour to give them one, traditionally they have been very male dominated

I think thats a valid point.

I do wonder why the metoo stuff has come now, and how this fits in with identity politics on both sides of the atlantic.

I do think that womens voices are coming out precisely because they have been squeezed out even more by current politics, which suggests that there is too much equality or equality has been achieved when everything says to the contrary.

The celebration of 100 years of suffrage looks very hollow and contrived tbh.

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prettybird · 31/03/2018 10:21

Red - your discussion about the Guardian reminds me of an argument I had with my parents when I was 15. I screamed at them, "You're so open-minded, you're closed-minded" Grin and part of me still thinks I was right Wink

Your analysis of the Guardian coverage might also explain my (Guardian reading) dad's "complaint" that the media was concentrating far too much on "unimportant in the grand scheme of things" trans-activism, rather then and these were his words the "rape of the country by the banks".

I took major issue with him for his casual use of the word "rape" and the downgrading of violence against women. I think he was quite shocked at the vehemence of my reaction - but if that is the message he is getting subliminally from the Guardian, maybe my outburst will make him think again. He's normally very open to understanding suppression, the shutting down of debate and the needs of the underdog. (hence why he is an Indy supporting, Remain voting 81 year old Wink - who hasn't voted Labour since the Iraq War, nor LibDem since the coalition but at least he has a party he can vote for up here Grin)