Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision

[RedToothBrush]

Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and the superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, capturers and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.
Norm Cohn ‘Warrant for Genocide’ 1970

(As referenced by Nick Cohen).

We have a deal (or bits of a deal). Bino til Dec 2020. Then the cliff?

Still a long way to go. It sounds better than it could be. But worse than it initially seems.

I directed a fairly obvious interloper to Style and Beauty at Christmas and it went apeshit. Perhaps that sort of tactic could be used?

No upcoming election or referendum scheduled but a great deal of turmoil, ideal time to stir the pot and cause further confusion and dissent.

Cages rattled I guess. The role of social media and trolls are being highlighted in the mainstream. We've never full been free of them on these threads even when things are quiet. Never a bad time to attempt to stir some discord or try to nudge a topic I suppose.

born that's hilarious. Do DM soundbites work well over there?

misti It all ends up coming back to certain things are seen as ok for some parties but not for others. Anti semitism/racism/etc are all sort of ok for Tories because its sort of expected, definitely fine for UKIP/BNP/etc. But its not ok for Labour or anyone more centre/left of them. It just highlights for me the horseshoe effect. I think it was bigchoc who posted that the only difference between the far left and far right was fiscal policy. There are elements in both parties that are really proving that right now.

It's not ok for Labour to be racist or anti-Semitic because they are the do-gooders. The party of the NHS and welfare state. To be so progressive and simultaneously so crude does not sit easily.

It's because people are drawn in by their virtue signalling nonsense that they're shocked to find such behaviour.

I was trying to gather some facts ( old fashioned I know) in response to Misti about the extent to which anti semitism is genuinely a Labour problem.After the Livingstone expulsion in 2016 this article suggested Corbyn admitted that there was a problem. Did he?

After all the Milibands were dominant only recently? Incidentally Ed is still an MP does he say anything interesting on the current referendum mess?

I googled MP religions. On wiki there only are eight Jewish Labour MPs listed including John Bercow but far more in the Conservative party.I’d be interested to know what these MPs say about the extent of the problem. It’s so difficult to gauge from the dodgy press reporting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListoffBritishJewishhpoliticians

https://972mag.com/what-the-left-can-learn-about-anti-semitism-from-ken-livingstone/118964/

Also I know not everyone rates James O'Brien on self id etc but you have to respect his tenacious determination on exposing damage from the referendum.

He doesn’t give up and I thought this was a good one liner ?

: If you ‘won’ something twenty months ago, you should at least be able to describe the actual prize by now. @mrjamesob

I'm sorry, Sostenueto - I'd forgotten you said that you didn't vote. It's just that everything you say suggests you really believe in Leave - including the claim that you abstained because you didn't have enough information

And I really can't get over the ignorance (in the true sense of the word - the "lack of knowing") of anyone who says that it would be discrimination to not allow a non member country's citizens to join in a membership only organisation

I know the analogy has been done to do death but it seems simple enough for most people to understand: it's like saying you want to leave a golf club because you don't like its rules and fees but then complaining that you're not allowed to play on its courses even though you love in the town/region it is named after.

Or to use an analogy I've used in the past, it's like complaining about a market venue/craft fair where you've had a successful stall but have decided that its fees and regulations are too much - but you now want in without paying and you want still to be able to go to the workshops it organises

I don’t know if this thread is of any use misti

mobile.twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/978009855477809153

I went to a talk a couple of weeks ago where Robert Peston was in conversation with Ruth Wishart (the opening event of Glasgow's "Aye Right" Festival). His book "WTF" (about Brexit) was the starting point for the discussion.

He made the point (that we've discussed on here) that while there was a core of "true believers" (of the anti-EU project), that many of those that voted Leave had been hit hard by austerity and had been ignored by both Labour and Conservatives and was essentially a cry for help, to be heard. These were predominantly people who had never voted before.

He said he fears for for democracy if there is another Referendum (or if Parliament reverses it) as they would feel betrayed yet again - even though they are the ones that will suffer most if Brexit goes ahead

When Ruth Wishart asked him why we in Scotland had voted strongly to Remain even more strongly than we had voted to stay in the UK he said that part of it was because we had PE

...oops, cat nudged me and I pressed Post by accident

To continue:
....Scots had a pride in their own identity in the way that the English didn't because the far right had appropriated the English flag.

Interestingly, he couldn't see the link between his sense of "being Jewish" even though he said he wasn't at all religious (so by that, he means more the Jewish culture and background) with the Scots "feeling Scottish".

He also didn't understand the point of one of the questions from the audience which was that the Scottish political system is much more accessible (not FPTP at both Holyrood and local councils, plus MSPs much easier to talk to) so that might be a factor in the lower level of disillusion (but the greater level of disillusion in Westminster )

The audience was overwhelmingly Remain: there was one question which we think was anti-immigration but it was so incoherent that despite 3 attempts Peston and Wishart were unable to decipher it.

PE? (Scuse ignorance)

I thought the same following Pretty's post and googled PE to see if there was some sort of different PR in Scotland! But it was a typo for the start of the word 'pride'..

Lonelyplanetmum - isn't John Bercow a Conservative?

It's never crossed my mind to find out what religion people (let alone MPs) are as I was brought up to be totally unaware of religion in individuals. It blew my mind when I started to go out with my now dh (a lapsed Catholic) that in Glasgow there was still some discrimination against Catholics (if they couldn't work it out from the name of your secondary, they'd ask what primary school you went to ). There was also discrimination against the Jewish community - which was why a number of the law practices in Glasgow were Jewish-Catholic partnerships

It makes me so that it all still rumbles along under the surface. The Orange Walks that go on, predominantly in the West of Scotland, are horrible.

Maybe it is because we have PE! ....our celebration of being Underdogs in the world of sport

but yes, it was autocorrect activating when I posted by accident and the word would've been "pride

😊 I thought I was going to learn some new vocab!
Whatever it is we need more of it down south!

Sorry yes Bercow is but he was rumoured at various points to be likely to defect to the Labour Party.

I just think that if there's religious discrimination within any party then it's worth listening to the opinion of people with that faith within the party?

I agree lonelyplanetone : it's all very well sanctimoniously saying, "But I don't discriminate" when your actions - conscious or institutional - are indeed discriminatory to those that are victim to them

It is not up to the person who is taking the actions to be the judge of their intent or effect. It is up to the person who has experienced the effect of those actions.

Maybe not just asking their MPs but also their members words should be heeded. I liked this thread on Labour and anti semitism. Mainly because it's positive in its suggestions on how they should look at it all.

twitter.com/davidschneider/status/977476275433558017?s=19

CBC for our EU news now: Good interview with Ben Bradshaw here:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=01pnvqL51iE

That was overall a good interview Woman.

There any many criticisms to make of Stephen Parkinson's past and his current role in the PM's inner circle.

However I think Bradshaw and many commentators are being a bit unfair about the gay relationship thing. Was Parkinson's motive really to intimidate his ex ( the whistleblower)? I think he would have been equally criticised if he had concealed the relationship. If it had been a straight relationship he would definitely have been condemned for not revealing they had been an item.

So I think that the latter part of Ben Bradshaw's interview detracted from the earlier part which was very good.

Chris Wylie was on Today saying that Sharmir Sanni's family were completely in the dark about his sexuality and that his mother is currently in Pakistan and feels under threat because of the revelation. Parkinson was in a relationship with Sanni for a year and a half and can't not have known that this was secret and, at the very least, his outing him was going to be embarrassing. The whole thing smacks of revenge (and one has to ask what one of the organisers of that campaign which was always dodgy, is doing as one of May's key staff).

Chris Wylie is also to be interviewed by the fake news committee headed by Damien Collins tomorrow. The Alexander Nix session was pretty interesting and I can only imagine that tomorrow's will be even more revealing, given that we now know so much more that can be put to him.

*The whole thing smacks of revenge
*
Bizarre as it is of me to defend a Leave campaign leader and a Tory to boot...

I really don't think it is to do with revenge. I think it's a
" OMG I'm in the PMs inner circle and my relationship with a serious whistleblower and dodgy campaign funding is about to be revealed. I had better acknowledge the close relationship now before someone else exposes my proximity to the funding manipulation ."

But yes absolutely we should ask what one of the organisers of that campaign which was always dodgy, is doing as one of May's key staff.

He will have to go soon surely?