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Brexit

Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 19/03/2018 18:02

Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and the superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, capturers and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.
Norm Cohn ‘Warrant for Genocide’ 1970

(As referenced by Nick Cohen).

We have a deal (or bits of a deal). Bino til Dec 2020. Then the cliff?

Still a long way to go. It sounds better than it could be. But worse than it initially seems.

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Peregrina · 23/03/2018 13:09

Next's profits have fallen 8% after the toughest trading for 25 years. How much of this is due to some of us boycotting Next because the management were promoting Leave? Mind you, they haven't made many sales to me - in all the years they have been trading I've bought a scarf and a pair of jeans.

Motheroffourdragons · 23/03/2018 13:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 13:42

Interestingly unlike most other businesses they didn't even suggest the referendum, plummeting pound and more expensive imports could be a factor. They said it was poor product choicesHmm. Poor buyers.

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 14:27

I know we should probably be concentrating on the French shooting of the attacker but I just happened to see this.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/city-jobs-will-start-moving-to-europe-from-next-month-znnw3mjdm

It is always articles like this that leave me incredulous with daily disbelief that we can be so bloody stupid.I will become inured to the rank stupidity of it all.

ElenaGreco123 · 23/03/2018 14:50

I am watching the Funeral Murders on the BBC iPlayer. Would anyone purposefully risk going back there?!

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 15:06

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
1. Something surreal happening today - just as Tusk and Juncker are talking about progress on Brexit, Dominic Cummings, former Vote Leave campaign chief, blasts back at claims about links btw Cambridge Analytica and the Brexit campaign
2. Cummings provides detailed responses to claims he says are to be made by whistleblowers about Vote Leave in next few days, he says allegations are 'factually wrong, hopelessly confused, or nonsensical'
3. Cummings also publishing emails that seem to suggest that Chris Wylie pitched to Vote Leave to provide the kind of thing that Cambridge Analytica provide - he says, 'Wylie, I rediscovered yesterday, tried to flog me the same crap he's attacking CA for doing'
4. The blog also reveals that Theresa May's political secretary, Stephen Parkinson, who was part of Vote Leave, was in a relationship with one of the whistleblowers, who was a volunteer
5. There will undoubtedly be pushback from the other side, but if you've been following the CA saga it's well worth a read - story online soon

dominiccummings.com/2018/03/23/on-the-referendum-24-global-conspiracies-and-a-scooby-doo-ending/
On the referendum #24: Global conspiracies and a Scooby Doo ending?

Someone worried?

I must read back about what Cummings said straight after the ref (it was one of the first things on the original Westministenders threads).

I seem to recall he made his systems publically available on GitHub. DH took one look at it and said it was bollocks and was spectacle that it could have done what Cummings suggested.

So that leaves me in a few minds. Is this all over stated? But why did Cummings feel the need to share his engine? It always seemed weird to be that he would. Why? There had to be a purpose, and I couldn't work it out at the time. Especially if what DH says is right.

Cummings makes this argument in his defence:

Another problem with CC’s theory is it requires that you believe simultaneously that a) Mercer/Putin et al are so brilliant and powerful they could orchestrate this global conspiracy AND b) it fell apart because they’re so dumb they entrusted the Brexit arm of it to Banks and Wigmore who promptly blabbed the whole dastardly scheme on the record to CC by mistake.

But I'm always minded by the fact that Banks brags of other stuff which might happen to be criminal, not because he's dumb, but because he feels untouchable.

I also don't think its a global conspiracy as such. Just an aligning of interests and a shared goal, which made either collaboration or exploitation of the situation attractive to 'the baddies'.

Cummings frames it as an attempt to over turn the ref.

I actually don't think that's true at this point. Whilst some would like that, for many others, they are more concerned about the integrity of democracy rather than the result and all these things do bring that - and the ref result - into question.

Cummings also argues:
Much of the political science world is dominated by bullshit ‘research’ and their claims cannot be relied on.

I studied this a long time ago, and my memory is rusty, but I think he is largely right but there were things that were also widely known and have been used for decades. More to the point this resembles psy ops black propaganda operations more than traditional political science. These methods have been used in other forms by states for many years with little of this knowledge and research in the public domain, so I rather take issue with his defence here.

He says
It is hard to change people’s minds
But that's not what Vote Leave, et al set out to do...

Lord Ashcroft did a graph on his site to do with the referendum which illustrates my point well. It wasn't about changing minds at all. This was part of the fatal flaw of the remain campaign and what they tried to do. The reality was it was all about the tiny group of undecided voters who didn't make up their mind until right at the end. The Remain vote was an 'on balance' argument, whereas the Leave one was about 'having something to vote for'. And this is why it appeals most, at the last minute, to the undecided. It also goes a long way to explaining why the polls showed Remain ahead right up to the last minute. Persuading people who are undecided is a whole different ball game to persuading those who already had an opinion. The other mistake Remain made was in discounting people who didn't normally vote. Remain didn't make an effort with this group. It was the late deciders and the disengaged voters which were targeted by Leave and ultimately won the vote. Cummings is extraordinarily disingenuous with this argument, because this has been explained in the past by Leave campaigners and to suggest that Cummings is unaware of this is laughable.

But Facebook cannot program fashion and opinions. Neither can marketing companies — almost all they do fails. Nobody can in free societies (Communist/fascist countries are obviously a different argument.)
Nope but because of the way platforms work they reflect their programmers and they challenge particular opinions in a particular way. They can not programme for it, but they can influence it simply by what they deem unimportant in features for a platform and their censorship policy. Social media is not a free society. The perception is that it is, but it is certainly not as free as we believe. That gap between perception and reality is important as it allows exploitation of its flaws.

This story going global is a great example of how little facts matter and how much context matters when looking at news. Facebook’s screwup has been in the public domain for two years. Everybody ignored it.
No everyone did NOT ignore it. It was simply difficult to get a platform and get taken seriously about these concerns because people were under false impressions. That's in part, down to who controls the media. That it was ignored by the main stream media isn't saying that everyone ignored it. Many people DIDN'T want to believe it, because its something that would shatter their world view about how FB was a liberal force for good and would bring freedom. We shy away from truths so terrible they hurt, even when they are in plain sight (Jimmy Saville).

His massive attempt to discredit Wylie and CC is not unexpected. You'd be more surprised if it wasn't there.

I do agree with Cummings in some of his points, but his truly epic rant (he gives me a run for his money) smells of fear too.

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RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 15:11

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
From Cummings blog:

They’ll publish details of ‘secret social media groups’, and the papers will print salacious details of relationships.

IE expect WhatsApp Groups on Sunday

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RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 15:14

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Breaking: Theresa May’s political secretary Stephen Parkinson reveals - via Dom Cummings blog - he was in a relationship with the whistleblower that ended in September. statement:

Errrrr this is a problem. Is he saying this in a personal capacity or a professional one. His relationship to Theresa May, makes it something of a point of controversy. Is No10 part of this denial???!

This is getting murky quickly.

Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision
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RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 15:20

Also Cummings deleted his twitter account last year as this story first began to come out.

It wasn't apparent why and questions were asked about the timing of it.

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DrivenToDespair · 23/03/2018 15:35

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ElenaGreco123 · 23/03/2018 15:54

I'll have to.buy more papers at the weekend.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 15:57

This was two hours ago. A cursory look suggests nothing’s happened since

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
BREAKING: Will the ICO finally get their warrant to enter Cambridge Analytica's offices & seize evidence? Hearing at high court about to kick off.

VivaKondo · 23/03/2018 16:00

Yep full on FEAR from the Leave side.

But Facebook cannot program fashion and opinions. Neither can marketing companies — almost all they do fails. Nobody can in free societies
You see I disagree with that. If that was the case, there would be reason to spend thousands of pounds on advertising for face cream products etc...
Hearing the same thing over and over again makes that thing true. It makes it normal and the norm.
That’s also what propaganda does.

And imo exactly what the Russians are doing atm with the bots etc...

I do think it’s just an issue with CA. I think the isssue is much wider and systemic. And we still haven’t quite woken up to it.

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 16:10

No one likes Trump in the UK. Being associated with Trump is politically toxic.

What amuses me, is that Cummings thinks both Remainers and Leavers should believe him. Remainers think he's a lying shit. Lots of leavers are pissed at what they were told, even if they still want to leave.

Whilst his points will hit with a lot of leavers, he also has a bad case of the being the boy who cried wolf. His only response to that is to go 'Look how corrupt Wylie is' as a distraction. Maybe Wylie isn't whiter than white. If facts don't matter and only the impressions of people do, then Cummings is a victim of his own bollocks anyway.

I am amused to see any sort of accountability for the ref hitting the fan. They were all convinced they could say or do anything and be above reproach. Even if it goes nowhere, I have to say the sight of them shitting their pants over it and desperately trying to justify themselves, makes me smile.

They might ultimately 'win' but I'll take the satisfaction over this one as a small consolation prize.

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RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 16:14

www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/23/cambridge-analytica-misled-mps-over-work-for-leave-eu-says-ex-director-brittany-kaiser?CMP=share_btn_tw
Cambridge Analytica misled MPs over work for Leave.EU, says ex-director
Brittany Kaiser contradicts CEO, who told MPs the data firm did not work with Brexit campaign group

Did UKIP share data with Leave.EU? Either directly or indirectly? And was this legal or done in a legal way?

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Amomentofbeauty · 23/03/2018 16:23

^Interestingly, I emailed Next to ask them about their Brexit position and that I would be re-considering my purchases if they supported Leave and they wrote back at great pains to explain it was only the personal opinion of the CEO.

I reckon it's worth a few emails along those lines to all the Brexit supporting companies myself. MPs don't care, I reckon the only way to get business off their arse making a noise is if there's a sustained campaign from Remainers along the lines of Stop Funding Hate. Only problem is, I have no need of a JCB and I'll never set foot in a Wetherspoons, so it might be somewhat limited in scopeConfused. I just feel so powerless.

DGRossetti · 23/03/2018 16:44

Only problem is, I have no need of a JCB and I'll never set foot in a Wetherspoons, so it might be somewhat limited in scope

It's almost as if Brexiteers were self-selecting Grin

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 17:00

Jeremy Corbyn says he backed antisemitic mural on ‘grounds of freedom of speech’

Controversial artwork depicted a group of businessmen and bankers sitting around a Monopoly-style board and counting money

www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-backed-antisemitic-mural-on-grounds-of-freedom-of-speech-1.461312

Icantreachthepretzels · 23/03/2018 17:39

Just a quick reminder - tomorrow is the Great Northern March. It's in Leeds and starts at 11am. Would be great if any Westminsterenders' from the north or midlands could show up and help swell the crowds.

For those further afield, there are also events in Edinburgh, Pontypridd, Maidenhead, Exeter and Ipswich.

There is a rally in Sunday in Newcastle as well. The North East for Europe changed the day of their event so they could bus people down to Leeds on Saturday - so they're out all weekend.

Please go to an event if you possibly can!

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 17:42

Corbyn invokes free speech when it suits him. And he invokes cracking down on print media when it suits him.

Now let me think about that... and what he REALLY thinks.

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DrivenToDespair · 23/03/2018 17:44

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KennDodd · 23/03/2018 18:08

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 18:19

Heather Stewart
@GuardianHeather
BREAKING: Owen Smith is being sacked by Jeremy Corbyn after calling for a vote on final Brexit deal. He will be replaced by Tony Lloyd.

DrivenToDespair · 23/03/2018 18:28

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