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Brexit

Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 19/03/2018 18:02

Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and the superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, capturers and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.
Norm Cohn ‘Warrant for Genocide’ 1970

(As referenced by Nick Cohen).

We have a deal (or bits of a deal). Bino til Dec 2020. Then the cliff?

Still a long way to go. It sounds better than it could be. But worse than it initially seems.

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lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 08:02

Just an idle and minor thought about language used.Sometimes that there are signs the ultimate destination is BINO.

(It makes me sad that the fight has gone from so many opposed to relinquishing membership that our sights are reduced to this but anyway...)

If BINO is what the govt are steering or staggering towards then journalists and people like DD should stop calling in Norway or Canada plus etc.

The hard isolationist brigade will never accept something if it is frequently referred to by a title that links it to something forrin.

Instead of all this dirty money and clandestine data use, the govt just need basic marketing advice.

The hubris problem is that as a nation we think we are really special. So actually BINO (or even fuller membership) that is called something British, special and bespoke probably would placate most of the insightful electorate.

So the 'special union' between the United Kingdom and the eu is acceptable, whereas membership with a title of the European Union will never be acceptable to all here.Ridiculous.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 08:03

peregrina this thread might be of interest

mobile.twitter.com/GlenMitchell1/status/976244423595118593

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 08:19

peregrina I would like to see such a party too, or at least a temporary grouping in Parliament to stop an Uktra Brecit.

However, there are also significant minorities on the hard left and hard right who regard even the govts from Major through to Cameron as the LabLibTory monopoly on power, which has always excluded them.

  • a left or right monopoly, depending on who is whingeing.

This is part of why Brexiters are so angry and aggressive - they feel this is their only shot at power.

PR replacing FPTP would both let the extremes have their place
and reduce the risk that they could take over the main 2 parties, as they seem to be achieving now

This is why many hard-liners don't want PR - they want their chance at winning a GE outright, via infiltration of a moderate party whose voters are likely to remain, from habit & tribalism.

One aspect that we need to handle better:
some of the poorest, who are habitual non-voters, but who voted in the EU referendum in anger, just as their one chance to kick at the comfortable middle class

Unfortunately, this anger, rarely gets diverted towards the ruling class, only to the mc figures they come into contact with, ruling their lives.

This anger has been cynically coopted by the hard-tight Brexiters, including some ubiquitous MN posters, with much aggression posted with the theme of "Guardian reading mc trying to dominate the wc"

Cailleach1 · 23/03/2018 08:23

Oh dear God! QT and Shami Chakrabarti 'calls herself a woman'. It is that simple, huh? She says she belongs to a 'feminist' party with 'all woman shortlists', but is not the gender police. Interesting. Few contradictory things there. Not least of all that I think Corbyn et al hark back to an era of Labour being the voice of a very male, heavy industry, organised trade unionised workforce. Working for the state too. A lot of jobs women do are not trade unionised at all. A lot of men now too. The most unrepresented really.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 08:35

imo, those men who feel uncomfortable about women having equal rights,
who only paid lip service to equality because they had to …

now feel safer with men claiming to be women, than they do with real women

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 08:37

One of many Brexit problems is how it is based on leading Brexiters contradicting themselves
… but Leave voters either don’t notice or don’t give a damn.

e.g. JRM:
“free trade puts consumers first and lowers prices for all”
but
he shamelessly plays to the gallery on the fishing industry
and with his “outrage” about saving up to £120 million by having UK passports printed by the French.

What “free trade” did he - and Leave voters - imagine ?

Cailleach1 · 23/03/2018 08:44

I think she is contradictory on this. She defends the all woman shortlists by saying Women have been on the bottom pile on this planet for thousands of years. So if any of the past pm's had simply called themselves a woman, would have been happy that would have in fact been more than two female pm's? In retrospect, would there have been more bottom of the pile women elected? There is a little 'miss between cup and lip', here.

Oh I have it wrong. Female and woman are now the same, according to an audience member. Ah, hang on, the SNP chappie says it is 'self-evident' that transwomen are women. Self-evident, no less.

If only it worked for my advantage. They create these child tickets (and prices) and they won't let me rock up and buy one. I should say 'who are you, the age police'? I'm doing life all wrong. I am anything and anybody I want to be from now on.

Cailleach1 · 23/03/2018 08:51

Another audience chappie said he voted to leave the Customs Union and Single Market. Nick Clegg had to correct A. Neill of what each one was a year on from the referendum. And the whole country seemingly knew each minutiae of difference long before.

Was the chappie also dissatisfied about the regulation of Orphan medicines by the EMA? Their system for product defects and recall, maybe?

He was talking a load of bull, wasn't he?

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 10:05

This is the most amazing article. It explains perfectly how our own vices in how we belief and reason have been used against us.

If I could recommend ONE thing for people to read this month it would be this. Over and about all the CA stuff and any of the other political stuff going on.

quillette.com/2018/03/21/the-problem-of-credulity/
The Problem of Credulity

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BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 10:34

red I think the importance of "credulity'` must also be related to the risk if one is wrong
i.e. not the % likelihood, which people often judge wrongly, but what is the most that can be lost

e.g. In a very large firm on evening, I lent a colleague, who I had never seen before, just under €3 for her tube journey home
because she said she had left her purse there and her colleagues had already left
(yes cheap trains here, that's the full cost of a journey with a few stops)

I believed she would almost certainly repay me the next day, which she did indeed, with many thanks again.

However, the cost if she hadn't was so trivial that I could ignore the risk
particularly when set against her problem of not being able to get home

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 10:36

However, when it is a matter of the future prosperity of the country, also affecting one's own personal prosperity,
then the lack of attention, thought, analysis is staggering Sad

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 10:38

Interesting article Red.

I'm interested in the references to open mindedness as it's something we discuss** periodically with the DC in connection with new experiences and differences between people.

Need more time to consider the article, but to play devil's advocate of course one could apply the thinking to those on both sides of the referendum vote.

"Credulity about many of the claims made in these areas provides endless opportunities for charlatans, who divert trusting and sometimes vulnerable people away from what might do them good, and instead hook them on useless and faddish ‘remedies’ that often leave them much poorer. Their dupes tend to think they are ‘open-minded’ and that this should lead them to believe in such things. They regard scepticism as a sure sign of closed-mindedness. In fact, it is usually the other way around; open-mindedness – impartial sensitivity to the available evidence – should usually lead to scepticism, while belief is more likely to be a sign of closed-mindedness."

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 10:44

I do agree BigChoc

Its the what if I am wrong / lose argument that we should always challenge ourselves with.

Best and most concise comparison is:
I think I can win £10000 on a £200 bet but can I afford to lose £200 if I am wrong?

The trouble is that in numerous political arguments there are certain groups who have far more to lose than others and this is reflected in how they make decisions.

That's why it is important to access a situation politically from lots of different angles and a failure to do this, is a failure of democracy / representation.

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RedToothBrush · 23/03/2018 10:46

Exactly lonelyplanet. Its devil advocate thinking.

I do think its relevant to both sides of Brexit and there are lessons in there for both.

I think the likes of CA have effectively weaponised this particular fracture and used it to polarise politics. But its now not just being used by companies like this but is in main stream politics.

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BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 10:51

and those who keep claiming they voted because they have "nothing to lose" or that "things can't get any worse"
are of course very wrong about that.

There is an inability / unwillingness to distinguish between being in a bad situation - relative to others - and a genuine catastrophe that could result from their decision

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 11:21

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
We have succeeded, again. Here's my statement on this morning's decision from the Divisional Court. /ENDS

[rest of the thread that details the project's activities up til this point: twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/977128368733859841 ]

Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 11:47

Channel 4 News
‏*@Channel4News*
New details have emerged about Cambridge Analytica’s connections to other companies.

Watch our full report here:

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 11:50

I don't think there is anything in there that hasn't already been covered on this thread

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 11:52

Urgh. Can't read all of it as paywalled

Jeremy Corbyn under pressure to sack shadow cabinet minister who said Labour should consider abandoning Brexit

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/23/jeremy-corbyn-pressure-sack-shadow-cabinet-minister-said-labour/

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 12:14

Update on the BBC and r4 just now.

The BBC's Brussels reporter Adam Fleming said the seven-page document laid out a possible future relationship with the UK, based on a free trade agreement with no tariffs on goods, partnerships on security, defence and foreign policy, and co-operation on education, research, culture and transport.
But, he added, there was also the offer of something even closer if the UK is prepared to compromise on its "red lines".

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 12:15

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43509309

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 23/03/2018 12:18

Faisal Islam
@faisalislam
Sky Sources: a number of EU 27 leaders discussed (after PM May left Summit) U.K.-US trade negotiations threatening post Brexit U.K.-EU Deal...

More on @skynews shortly

ElenaGreco123 · 23/03/2018 12:23

Has HMRC started an education campaign about the EU? Fightback starts here?
I have just received my tax summary for last year and less than 0.7% of my tax contributed to the EU budget. I am part-time in the North East, so it is basically peanuts. In return I get free movement, roaming and healthcare abroad.

lonelyplanetmum · 23/03/2018 12:55

That is significant Elena because it used to be listed separately then it was listed as ' other' and now it's listed individually again.

Sostenueto · 23/03/2018 13:06

Terror attack in France, hostages held in supermarket......

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