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Brexit

Westministenders: One for the Women

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2018 10:23

Just remember that women are more likely to be worried about Brexit.

Their women's and workers rights are more at risk from departure from the EU, the ECJ and potentially the EHCR.
They are more likely to be worried as EU citizens in the UK due to taking time to have and raise families.
They are more likely to have been badly affected by austerity and an economic downturn will hit them first.
If they are leavers they are more likely to have changed their minds.
They are less likely to be MPs so have less representation.
They are more likely to be feeling politically unrepresented by any party and unsure of who they will vote for at the next election.
They are more likely to get abuse for expressing a political opinion. Many report having been subjected to sexual harassment from political colleagues.
They are more likely to be the target of abuse on social media.
They are earn less than their political colleagues, they earn less than their media colleagues, they earn less than their business colleagues. They are less likely to be in powerful lobby groups.

Then there's #metoo

And to cap it off women's groups are finding it hard to get their voice heard, and are frequently being labelled as hysterical or bigoted for merely wanting to discuss things and be reassured that their fears are acknowledged. They are frequently dismissed as liars or over sensitive.

This is 2018.

It doesn't feel progressive. It doesn't look equal.

Brexit has more of an impact on women.

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woman11017 · 13/03/2018 17:33

Ummm

Westministenders: One for the Women
Motheroffourdragons · 13/03/2018 17:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

oldbirdy · 13/03/2018 17:35

the cat - my inference is that there was no plan to poison Salisbury. The poison was in the home, we know from the policeman who got ill. What I assume was intended to happen was that he and his daughter would be poisoned at home, fall ill at home and die at home. Presumably it may have taken some time to find the bodies since the rest if his family have already died. By which time there may be no evidence to how they died - I gave no idea how long this stuff lasts in tissue. The plan went wrong only because both parties went out immediately after being exposed to the toxin, and before getting ill. Whoever administered it may not have expected that.

Talkstotrees · 13/03/2018 17:35

Only read the OP (will go back & rtft) but could it not just be bait?

thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 17:35

Oh, that's sweet. It's Newton. I think they're being quite flattering, actually.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2018 17:38

And we laughed at the CIA trying to kill Castro with exploding cigars Hmm

thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 17:41

oldbird - and anyone else who has not already found it - this thread , at least the opening posts, has a great discussion about the issue of contamination and the constitution of the nerve agent.

DrivenToDespair · 13/03/2018 17:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 18:01

Totalitarianism
Totalitarianism begins in contempt for what you have. The second step is the notion: “Things must change—no matter how, Anything is better than what we have.” Totalitarian rulers organize this kind of mass sentiment, and by organizing it articulate it, and by articulating it make the people somehow love it. They were told before, thou shalt not kill; and they didn’t kill. Now they are told, thou shalt kill; and although they think it’s very difficult to kill, they do it because it’s now part of the code of behavior. They learn whom to kill and how to kill and how to do it together. This is the much talked about Gleichschaltung—the coordination process. You are coordinated not with the powers that be, but with your neighbor—coordinated with the majority. But instead of communicating with the other you are now glued to him. And you feel of course marvelous. Totalitarianism appeals to the very dangerous emotional needs of people who live in complete isolation and in fear of one another.

Lies
The moment we no longer have a free press, anything can happen. What makes it possible for a totalitarian or any other dictatorship to rule is that people are not informed; how can you have an opinion if you are not informed? If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. This is because lies, by their very nature, have to be changed, and a lying government has constantly to rewrite its own history. On the receiving end you get not only one lie—a lie which you could go on for the rest of your days—but you get a great number of lies, depending on how the political wind blows. And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please.

www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-from-an-interview/
Hannah Arendt

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DGRossetti · 13/03/2018 18:07

If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer

Shades of Chesterton ?

"A society that does not believe in God does not believe in nothing; it believes in everything ...."

Peregrina · 13/03/2018 18:16

Umm, what could Russia do? Cut off the gas supplies? Just as well that Spring is round the corner. Meanwhile, we have phased out coal fired power stations and closed our coal mines, which couldn't be reopened even if we wanted to. Ah, such good planning.

thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 18:16

Mmm. I've been reading a bit of Arendt recently and wondering about how it applies to our present moment.

In a way, we are almost post-Arendt - because, of course, we're in a situation where people have read, and learned from the great totalitarian experiments and people's (including Arendt's) analysis of it.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of conspiracy theories in our present situation. They speak clearly to a people who are aware that state's lie, or are economical with the truth, and weaponise people's desire for truth, knowledge that they are distantiated from power (including the power of being included in closed and powerful networks of communication), and desire to understand, get to the heart of authentic facts, from within a piecemeal narrative of true, untrue, missing and abesnt facts.

I've been thinking about the best way to approach this situation and, as I said, I am experimenting with a very post-structuralist approach - in which I look at the ends to which narratives are put. I'm on a personal mission to see if it is more fruitful, and less prone to subversion, than a hunt for authenticity.

It also strikes me that the fabricatted narratives dissolve over time - there's a fascinating time issue with regard to truth and false narrative, which was very evident during the Referendum but I think it holds good generally - and actually, what that tells us is not that 'truth always emerges triumphant but, actually, something perhaps more alarming - which is that the here and now is so important, it's worth focusing a lot of attention on how narratives work, and the uses to whic they are put, in the here and now.

I'm sure that is a very old thought for you, Red because you'll have thought about this, and come across many other people's - deep - thoughts on these issues, and you'll have formed your own conclusions (which will probably be far less superficial than mine).

I'm just a bit Shock at my all-too-recent discovery, over the course of Brexit and the Trump election, that there have been people working away so hard, and in paid, professional roles, with job titles and so on, as propagators of conspiracy theories. I can remember coming across this when I was studying for my PhD - it was an emergent subject for theses at that point - but it was nowhere as ... formed as it is now. Not as weaponised. It's staggering to see how it's all changed. And I am shocked.

But anyway, I am going to see how my personal experiment works out.

thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 18:18

Ooh! Apolgies for my punctutation in that! Ouch!

DGRossetti · 13/03/2018 18:20

Umm, what could Russia do? Cut off the gas supplies?

Which all of Europe needs. They'd thank us !!!

Just as well that Spring is round the corner.

I didn't realise you'd just moved to the uk Grin

Meanwhile, we have phased out coal fired power stations and closed our coal mines, which couldn't be reopened even if we wanted to. Ah, such good planning.

Not to mention total nuclear fail Sad

I was ruminating last night that it seems the only legacy from a century of incredible scientific research will be the A and H bombs SadSadSadSad

thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 18:22

And I do know that false narratives and conspiracy theories are old, with a long and ignominous provenance - but these seem to have a quite modern twist.

It's grim.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2018 18:24

And I do know that false narratives and conspiracy theories are old, with a long and ignominious provenance

Pretty certain they pop up in Suetonius ...

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 19:18

It also strikes me that the fabricatted narratives dissolve over time - there's a fascinating time issue with regard to truth and false narrative

Jesus was a white man with blue eyes.

The British Empire civilised the world.

Dropping the atomic bomb on Nagasaki three days after Hiroshima was necessary and without it the war in Japan would have carried on for many more years.

There is no black history in the UK before the 1960s.

How are we doing on those? Not convinced we've got close to the truth on any of these.

it's worth focusing a lot of attention on how narratives work, and the uses to whic they are put, in the here and now.

Ding, ding, ding. Identify the narrative. And the motive. Politics is like a good murder mystery all the time! Treat it as such.

He who controls the narrative is important. Who are they and what do they want. (A variation of follow the money).

What is the difference between what someone says is their political ambition and what their political ambition actually is?

What is the difference between what you say and what you do? Do they look like what they say they are? (The regressive progressives. The illiberal liberals).

What things are immovable in practice?
Where does pragmatism meet ideology?

This is where you read between the lines and get closer to knowing what is really going on.

Our interpretation of history changes too. It often reflects the present better than the reality of history. But we don't usually look at the present first.

You should look to how and why people do it. Its rarely to do with the latest historical evidence. When people turn to the past to make a point, why are they doing it? Not just is it valid. Are we judging by the standards of the time or our standards now?

Retrospective views of Blair are a good example. He is criticised for the way he span things (rightly) but to say Corbyn has more integrity and doesn't spin things, because he does it in a different manner is fundamentally wrong.

As a rule, I say trust your gut. You know when things feel off kilter. You might not be able to pin point it, to identify exactly what it is but you know. It doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it means you are missing a piece of information.

If thats the case beware of the person who offers you the explanation that makes perfect sense. There is never a perfect explanation. Question their motives. Don't jump to conclusions.

Try and ask difference questions about the same issue from a slightly different angle or perspective.

If lots of people suddenly start jumping up and down its because the issue needs looking at, but the thing they say they are jumping up and down about, or you think they are jumping up and down about, might not be right.

Often we come up with 'solutions' before we have asked the right question. Asking questions and offering alternative explanations that are credible helps others to consider if they were right.

But you have to be credible to be listened to. Who makes the case is important.

Above all else, just keep asking flaming questions, and be afraid of the man who refuses to answer and to offer a debate.

They have something to hide.

I will keep coming back to it, but we have lost the meaning of word liberalism in democracy to notion of the wrongs of neo-liberalism in economics. We have lost the meaning of democracy in the will of the people rather than the importance to keep talking.

Hold onto the principles and foundations of liberal democracy for dear life. All our political parties have abandoned them. We either tread a long and dark path back to them the hard way, or we champion what really makes us free ahead of tribal loyalties and allegiances. Far from improving our situation those type of identities can often control us and trap us.

Look instead at what drives them and the principles that underpin them. Thats where you find the common ground.

Fwiw I've learnt at least as much about politics and history in the last two years than I ever did at university studying similar things. And only with the clarity that listening to others has given me.

I see glimmers of hope, mixed with really dark clouds. The lights haven't gone out. Yet.

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RedToothBrush · 13/03/2018 19:25

We don't need a Churchill.

We need a Jefferson.

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thecatfromjapan · 13/03/2018 20:00

Oh, I can't argue with any of that, Red. And I think we're 'lucky' enough to live in a time when it's become really rather crucial to do all of that. I just want to raise a (necessarily limited) warning about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which I think it actually quite valid at the moment. They - and the desire to follow them - need a very particular health warning at the moment. Though I agree it probably comes under the sub-heading of "Be critical". However, I also think we need to develop some quite specific tools, with regard to conspiracy theories as they exist at this present moment.

In the interests of full disclosure - I didn't complete the thesis. Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 20:05

Nerve gas when used by a state is a breach of international law , even in wartime against soldiers,
let alone without warning exposing a civilian population

imo, May should have all the evidence collected and then ask the International Criminal Court in the Hague to investigate whether the Russian state & its employees are involved

The ICC can draw up warrants for extradition if they find a case to answer, probably only against those who actually carried out the attack and those who supplied the nerve agent, but not anyone very high up in the Kremlin food chain.

Putin would hate the embarrassment of his minions being charged,
whereas he loves being the bogeyman when defectors or his political opponents live in fear.

Sostenueto · 13/03/2018 20:13

On t.v this even Ming they were talking about the 14 Russians who died and are now investigating them again. There was another Russian who died mysteriously on Monday apparently who had connections with one of the 14 who died recently.

Sostenueto · 13/03/2018 20:17

How are they going to prove without a doubt who did the poisoning? Surely that is going to be almost impossible to prove or take an awful long time to prove?

Bit iffy about end of Trump statement saying if there is proof...... I don't trust that man one iota! Also what a dreadful way to sack your secretary of state, quite cruel I think.

Sostenueto · 13/03/2018 20:25

Counter-terror cops probe Russian death in Londonnews.sky.com/story/counter-terror-cops-probe-russian-death-in-london-11288431

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 20:26

The question is why Trump so suddenly sacked his Secretary of State …
almost in panic …
for speaking in support of Britain against Trump's Russian pals ?

Whatever Russian Intelligence is holding over Trump, it gives them a very firm grip on his throat.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 20:34

Despite the seriousness of a possible SMD attack by a hostile foreign government,
we have to keep an eye on the Uk govt too - because their actions affect more than the population of Salisbury

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/government-austerity-damage

Paul Johnson, head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) warns:
“We are nowhere near out of austerity.

There are still big spending cuts and big social security cuts to come.”
He predicts child poverty will rise quickly,
as benefit freezes, cuts and rising prices far outweigh minimum wage increases