The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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No kicking off on this thread!!!

Bear has kindly set up another (non-pub) thread, so that leaves this one free for the Brexiteers!!!

Good speech by Theresa May today - onwards to Brexit 🍻🇬🇧

Allowing an area of the U.K. to have elected representatives in a non U.K. parliament after Brexit would have massive implications for sovereignty. Which parliament would be pre eminent over which laws?
NI would have rights denied other U.K. residents.

Surely the point of Brexit is sovereignty. If we are going to compromise for NI why not for the whole of the U.K.? Why not just remain?

How happy would Scotland be - who voted to remain - in NI got representatives and they didn't.

Won't happen - can't happen.

Bear

Hey I might be a leaver but see your target went from Faith to User
Not big or clever. Did you think that pulled it back for you. No.

Exactly mousse, I honestly can't see a workable situatation which doesn't involve remaining in SM/CU i.e., effectively changing nothing.

Precisely, mousse. While we can argue back and forth about the broader economic benefits or otherwise of Brexit, NI is a shitstorm right now that Leavers have caused and can't fix.

inkanta, it's you who is Labouring a point, long past.

I was just honest, as ever, in my posts.

You don't like mine, fine, point that out and move on.

gussy those rights have been enshrined in an international treaty lodged at the UN.

There are many people born in the north of Ireland who are Irish and not British. It is not “claiming their birthright”, it is a statement of fact.

You could not, could not, have a situation where foreign nationals living in the U.K. could vote for a non national parliament while British nationals were not allowed to vote, if that parliament was to have any jurisdiction in the U.K.

That non national parliament could have no jurisdiction over the U.K.

A Spaniard living in the U.K. could vote for the Spanish parliament - but that parliament has no jurisdiction in the U.K.

Constitutionally untenable.

Does anyone else get irrational rage at DD it's his job to know this stuff it's all he has to do.

It's not looking good for an agreement by the end of the month is it?

Moussemoose then how do you uphold the GFA?

That Briefings for Brexit list of contributors
lots of old male white rich Oxbridge educated experts
but I guess friendly experts are OK for Gove's followers

Why the sniping?

If you don't trust experts, don't trust them - no gun to your head forcing compliance.

Take what you want from their viewpoint, leave what you want.

Different perceptions & conclusions are drawn by different people.

No need to snipe & bitch.

@AgnesSkinner

Uphold the GFA after Brexit?

God knows, I don't.

Moussemoose exactly.

It’s a right mess.

However, if anyone can come on and tell me how Brexit will work constitutionally in NI I would be interested.

Assuming you value upholding the GFA.

mousse it won't work.

The shit is going to hit the fan before the month is out.

I've predicted that's a u-turn on SM/CU for ages, it's the only option.

The EU are not impressed by TMs speech by all accounts so they're not going to roll over.

We literally have no other viable solution,

Faith the Government of Gibraltar is not subordinate to Westminster but the Devolved administrations are. That is the difference and why I don't think the case law applies.

I also agree with Gussy on sovereignty overlap. In this context it is sometimes conveniently forgotten that Ireland explicitly gave up its claim to NI as part of the GFA rewording its Constitution to reflect the principle of consent. "Now the Irish Constitution recognises that Northern Ireland will remain in the UK for as long as the majority wishes."

education.niassembly.gov.uk/post_16/snapshots_of_devolution/gfa/after

As far as I know about Gibraltar. The U.K. government is sovereign in foreign affairs and defence but the government of Gibraltar controls all internal politics.

The Spanish have requested joint sovereignty but been rejected out of hand.

Very, very different historical relationship to the U.K. can't see it being used as a way forward especially as power sharing in NI is not exactly working well at the moment.

Faith the Government of Gibraltar is not subordinate to Westminster but the Devolved administrations are. That is the difference and why I don't think the case law applies.

That makes sense - thanks

The UK proposes that the Withdrawal Agreement confirms that the current substantive position is not changed as a result of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU and that both parties recognise that it will remain unchanged. As long as Ireland remains a member of the EU, Irish citizenship also confers EU citizenship, with all the rights that go with this. This is as true for the people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens – or who hold both British and Irish citizenship – as it is for Irish citizens in Ireland. The UK welcomes the commitment in the European Commission’s directives that these EU rights should continue to be respected following the UK’s departure from the EU: “Full account should be taken of the fact that Irish citizens residing in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens”.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638135/6.3703_DEXEU_Northern_Ireland_and_Ireland_INTERACTIVE.pdf

How would my neighbours here on the mainland UK who voted Leave feel if I said I wanted an MEP to mop up my Irishness outside UK jurisdiction.

“Full account should be taken of the fact that Irish citizens residing in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens.”

You are residing in the UK mainland and not in Northern Ireland.

Another comment that made me chuckle, this time from The Irish Border twitter account

UK Government proposes the following customs arrangements to avoid a hard border in Ireland:

“Small traders bringing goods across the border should tweet @BorderIrish an emoji of their goods (eg, 🐓🐄🖥). @BorderIrish will then tweet back 👍 when it looks at its Notifications.”

It would be even funnier if it weren't true.

When I get my Irish passport, I will enjoy all the rights of an EU citizen. Even though I am living in mainland UK. As a dual British citizen. Same for my dd.

But the question is how those rights will be enforced as the UK will no longer be under the direct jurisdiction of the ECJ. What court will Irish citizens resident in Northern Ireland have recourse to enforce their EU citizenship rights?

And living on the mainland you will not be exercising your full EU citizenship rights as you will no longer be able to vote in European elections.

There’s more to it than just retaining FoM.

"LondonMum - here's a link to the list of editors & contributors.

A pretty expert bunch of people by all accounts."

Then I'm sure at least Torygraph will be happy to publish their work, unless of course it's too bonkers even for them. The bar is pretty low given that they publish BoJo's confabulations.

I entirely understand that living outside of the EU (in mainland UK) means that I cannot vote in EU elections etc despite having dual citizenship which includes an EU country. I think what you are not getting, Agnes, is that the same must apply in NI. Uk citizens there must also lose the right to vote in EU elections even if they also have the right to EU citizenship via ROI citizenship.
Making a "special case" for people in NI will piss off the Unionists and seem like uniting Ireland through a not very secret back door.
My Irish passport will allow me to have FOM in the EU which my next door neighbour who is not entitled to EU citizenship will not have.
As pp has said , ROI has sacrificed its constitutional claim on NI for the sake of the peace process. Screwing with the GFA (which Brexit does) and making some sort of alternate government mechanism for people who do not recognise the UK government will dredge all this back up again.