The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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This may be the last Brexit Arms thread that I will host.

It was intended to be a non-partisan and relatively light hearted thread for posters on both sides of the divide, but unfortunately this seems to have proved impossible so far.

It is not supposed to be a place for the disgruntled Remainer to use as an outlet to abuse and kick out at their perceived enemy.

I will give it one last go in the hope that things will change.

So.... onwards to Brexit....

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Also the man of the people Tony Benn, was of course closer to Jacob Rees Mogg, then the average Labour supporter.
Both Labour and Tory parties are broad churches.
Except from hard ends of both, most Mp's from both parties have similar ideals. See New Labour, many thought it was Tory lite
No bad thing, except for brexit planning where most Mp's don't have a clue what to do. Sadly. Secretly I think most wish it would go away

Perhaps thats because the government wants us to stay in after all, just doesn't know how to tell us.

I think this is true too.

Or, rather, not 'wants us' but realises that we CANNOT leave without it being a disaster in some shape or form.

Basically, and this has always been the case, leaving is a political imperative but that is all it is.

Also the man of the people Tony Benn,

One of the few people who had a constructive insight into possible direction the EEC/EC/EU could have taken in the 80s and 90s. Probably best not listened to though. Not when you can have deadwood Redwood in your corner.

How are Brexiters feeling today about being Putin's useful idiots? Divided we shall fall.

You're a bit confused Mother.

I do think John Major has a cheek, considering he whipped his govt so tightly on the matter back in the day.

I do like Margaret Thatcher - and she could see where the Maastricht Treaty was leading us.

I don't understand this notion you seem to have that I should not be allowed to have opinions on different things.

Perhaps your dogmatic adherence to one side, and one side only is what informs your ongoing angst?

Just a thought.

I don't have an agenda btw, other than that I support Brexit, and support leaving the customs union & single market.

If I see something convincing enough to sway me to changing my mind, then I've no trouble with changing my mind - you say inconsistent - I say flexible & open minded.

How do remainers feel about being Brussels's useful idiots?
Divided we shall fall etc.

How do remainers feel about being Brussels's useful idiots?
Divided we shall fall etc.

The only people causing division are the gutter press and Tories that require it for their ideology to thrive.

"Divided we shall fall etc."

Hey @Faith: European Union.

If I see something convincing enough to sway me to changing my mind, then I've no trouble with changing my mind - you say inconsistent - I say flexible & open minded.

Sticking to your view despite being told that it is unworkable and will cause serious damage to the UK is not flexible and open minded.

Yeah, imagine a sovereign government holding a referendum that led to the worst division in British society that I can remember. Imagine putting the future of the UK at risk. Imagine risking peace in NI.

I have no concept of where you get the idea anyone wants us to fall? Not in the U.K. or in the rest of the U.K. The EU will want to protect itself from collateral damage as we withdraw but that doesn't mean it wants us to fall.

Replace one U.K. with EU, shouldn't type in a hurry!

I am not too full of angst you know. Just pointing out that you like to have things your own way..

Who doesn't like to have things their own way though?

It's no different to the ardently anti-Brexit remainers being cross that they're not getting their own way, or Jezza lovers being cross that he's not PM etc etc.

I know that he annoys bearbehind but I'm impressed that user147 has left the ranting group and joined the think and ask questions group.

user147
If the UK leaves the EU, we become like any other non EU country that has a land order with the EU
like Ukraine or Belarus or Bosnia or Albania.
You'll accept that at those EU / non EU land borders there are pretty strict customs controls to ensure that what is coming into the EU is allowed.
The border between RoI and Northern Ireland will be in exactly the same category.

There are some non EU countries that are in the main Customs Union (Switzerland and Norway and Leichtenstein) and they pay into the EU and accept all EU decisions on product standards.
They have nearly frictionless trade because they have complied wit the rules before the border.

Turkey has a land border with the EU and a form of Customs Union.
Because Turkey does not pay in and does not already comply with rules, the average wait to clear customs is 12 hours.

The waits to cross in from countries not in the EU and not in Customs Unions can run to days as paperwork is checked against lorry contents and import duty is collected.

The UK has had seamless movement across the NI border and through the channel posts since 1992
UK business and industry is built around stuff going back and forth
the engine head block of a BMW car crosses the channel 5 times before its driven out of the UK showroom

If companies cannot have seamless movement, the simplest thing for them will be to move all production to the bits of the EU that remain seamless.

There was a Hull fish merchant on the news last night saying that if he cannot ship fresh fish quickly to the continent, he may need to switch to landing the fish outside the UK .....

@TalkinPeace it's a bit early, but I'd be happy to declare that Post of the Day on Brexit Arms.

There are some non EU countries that are in the main Customs Union (Switzerland and Norway and Leichtenstein) and they pay into the EU and accept all EU decisions on product standards.

Switzerland in particular should have sounded a warning to the gung-ho Brexiteers. They tried to do pretty much what Theresa May et al think that they can do. They even had the "will of the people" on their side too. to no avail. The EU just held to their principles, and Switzerland had to capitulate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_February_2014

(Notice the 51/49 split there too)

LondonMum
Its quite cool because sensible questions require sensible answers that actually help me organise my thought process too

Norway isn't in the customs union, but is in the single market through European Economic Area / European Free Trade Association membership. It sets its own tariffs on goods imported from outside the EU and can export Norwegian goods tariff-free into the EU as long as goods qualify as having originated in Norway ("rules of origin").

The EEA / EFTA countries also include Iceland and Liechtenstein, and all are in the Schengen area and are signed up to the four freedoms.

Switzerland is a bit different - it is a member of EFTA and in Schengen but withdrew from the EEA and gets access to the single market via a series of bi-lateral agreements with the EU. One of these agreements enshrines the free movement of people - Switzerland has a large number of foreign residents and around 300,000 commute across the border from France, Austria, Italy, Germany etc to work.

EFTA doesn't include agricultural products or fish products policies and there are special provisions for trade in these. EFTA also doesn't cover things like security and defence, justice and monetary union.

EFTA negotiates Free Trade Agreements with countries around the world (there are currently 27 agreements covering 38 countries).

Turkey is not a member of EFTA but is in the EU customs union. The customs union covers goods (with the exception of agricultural products) and allows tariff and quota free trade with the EU but doesn't cover services or finance. There is no cost to be a member and no free movement of people.

But - Turkey cannot strike free-trade deals in goods with other countries, and any deals that the EU makes automatically open the Turkish market without giving Turkey reciprocal rights (cheap Mexican imports, for instance, can enter Turkey even though it has no free-trade deal with Mexico). There are also lengthy checks at the Turkish border with the EU.

Thank you for the clarification Agnes

and it reiterates the point that if the UK leaves the EU and the customs union, then its on a par with Ukraine and Bosnia as far as border controls go .....

Basically nothing is as good as being in the CU and SM. Anything else is either a third rate fudge or economically disastrous.

Basically nothing is as good as being in the CU and SM.

Many moons ago, there was a plaintive wail from a Leaver ... I just want the EU to give us the best possible deal to which the lightening quick reply was: They have, it's called ... being in the EU.

This was before the press conference where a (German ?) reporter made a similar point when Davies said "we are seeking the best possible deal".

We already have it.