The Brexit Arms

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Welcome to The Brexit Arms!
Looking forwards, not backward!

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Thanks Faith for a good reasoned argument. Which I agree with.

So why are these fools even attempting this? Why be so reckless?

Who knows Olivia, who knows...

In all honesty, I've minimal confidence in just about all of them at the mo - most of them are so immersed in their own agendas they're ultimately just wrecking the country.

(And I include all parties & politicians on both 'sides' of the Brexit divide in that).

They're not attempting it though Olivia. Why would they anyway. What would be the point? What on earth would the government have to gain by doing anything like that?
Just because it is one of the many EU directives affected by the withdrawal bill it doesn't mean it would be adversely affected. There is a situation in Scotland where the SNP are trying to suggest that the government are trying to grab power away from the Scots due to the withdrawal bill but they have been assured by the government that that is not true.

Double, I believe Amendment 364 tries to exclude the removal of these rights under Henry VIII powers. This is being resisted. Why?

The point would be to satisfy corporate interests perhaps? Don't know. In the US I could point to corrupt lobbying efforts. Here I'm less sure but corruption is not beyond the grasp of our pols is it?

The more pertinent issue for the UK labour market and the tax base is the growth in the gig economy, zero hours contracts and artificial constructs around self-employment. There are suggestions that the restrictions / inflexibility in EU rules such as the working time directive have partly driven this.

Evidence to date from TM's Government is of a push back against this trend. So I can see a rationale for them seeking to walk away from these regs.

At least if the corruption is closer to home (UK rather than EU) it is easier to uncover.

I think it unlikely that the same government who are seeking to claw as much as they can back for workers from their pensions funds which have been very depleted by their employers, are going to remove workers rights for paid leave to satisfy self same employers!
I think Howabout is right in suggesting that the government wants to change the working time directive to improve the rights of our workers in the likes of the gig economy.

Wrt resisting the amendment, then I'm for that.
The raft of amendments relating to individual aspects such as this one were introduced to frustrate the passage of the bill & whip up suspicion.

I honestly can't see the govt attempting to sneak through anything that has been suggested wrt all those amendments tbh.

Workers rights have been in retreat since Thatcher. Chipped away and diminished. Don't kid yourself that the Tories won't get rid of more rights. It is the EU that has stemmed the tide.

Howabout so you are suggesting the EU is responsible for the diminishing of workers rights? And then you suggest that the Tories want to push back to secure workers rights?

Have I got that right? You think the Tories want to help workers?

Are you serious?

Actually labour market segmentation and subsequent erosion of rights for less permanent workforce are at comparatively low levels in the UK relative to rEU. The EU does not appear to have been offering much protection.

Interesting paper on the subject.

labourmarketresearch.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s12651-017-0231-7

One thing that definitely helps this issue of worker abuse by member states is that the affected worker can just up and leave, resulting in the offending employers/countries having to struggle with labour shortages. In terms event of actual Brexit, most British workers will have nowhere to run from the global free market abuse the Tories have in store for them.

The EU offers last resort protection. Individual member states control the vast majority of legislation, as the article makes clear.

Brexit supporters argue that the EU is homogenising member states the article shows how each countries individual legislation is still important and relevant.

The EU is criticised for interfering too much, the paper indicates it does not. The EU should act as a final court of arbitration not first level legislation. A balance it doesn't always achieve but it seems to in this case.

UK has already 'agreed in principle' with EU to Norway-style transition

And at least we can still count on Sky to give less biased reporting on Brexit unlike the BBC

@CardinalSin

I suppose we expected a solution for transition with no say. To call it Norway style is a bit odd though. We will still have to be in the CU. Norway is not. I guess what the article means to impress on readers is we are losing control.

We're going to be paying our agreed amount to the budget til its end anyway, & as a member of EFTA we could seek to make trade deals.
Fixed end date of 31st Dec 2020 sounds fine too, so it's not interminable limbo.

All the 'seat at the table' and being 'rule-takers, not rule-makers' stuff is overblown anyway - Germany & France decide what's happening, we just go along with everything.

"Germany & France decide what's happening, we just go along with everything."

They do now, they didn't before.

Read this last night, thought about it and pretty much agree with what Faith has just said.

Pathetically ignorant discounting of the key role Britain has been playing in the EU. There is a reason all those EU agencies have been based in London. Particularly idiotic is the lack of recognition of our role in financial services (sorry, Faith just saying it how it is).

On a different topic within the wider Brexit debate, there's a survey by Open Europe about attitudes to immigration which found that the well worn 'Brexit voter = anti immigrant xenophobe' trope is incorrect.

"Our data therefore contradicts the view that xenophobia, racism or intolerance are major drivers of public attitudes towards controlling immigration."

(Caveat: I am not convinced by polls as they're subjective & unreliable - but this is an interesting counter-narrative nonetheless)

openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/beyond-westminster-bubble-people-really-think-immigration/

There was a report about Macron saying if France had a Vote, it would have been the same as the UK, which tends to back up the theory of how out of touch with the little people most of the top brass are.
People's hopes and worries never seem to be the major influence of the how the world works.
I don't want wars, they cost too much, and the money spent on all the warmongering could be redirected to better areas.
Contracts seem to be handed out for Millions to companies with Board members who's pay scale are so out of touch with reality, the small local companies get pushed out everything gets centralized and then the work takes weeks to sanction, while the small company could have done it cheaper and the next day.
Councils could decentralize this, but seem willing to just go alone with the rest like sheep..
If they capped all jobs to 150k for anyone in the pay of the government, no one would starve on that wage, it's a just a gravy train...

Mummmy that is not what he said.

He basically said if you ask people who are unhappy if they want change you shouldn't be surprised if they say yes. He also said we should be asking what change they expect and explaining solutions.

Iirc what he said was that if the French people had been given the same binary question they'd have 'probably' said leave too.
It was overblown by the press (as per).

He also so the people feel they are not being listen to.

He added: "I wouldn’t take any bet though - I would have fought very hard to win.

"My understanding is that middle classes and working classes and the oldest decided that the recent decades were not in their favour, and the adjustments made by the EU were not in their favour.

"I think the organisation of EU went too far with freedom without cohesion, free markets without rules."