The Brexit Arms

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Welcome to The Brexit Arms!
Looking forwards, not backward!

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The huge plus for studying an undergrad or post grad course at an EU uni is that they are taught in English (although MFL A level is often required, at least for undergrad courses).

Now this time I really will acknowledge my mistake.
I really thought the whole point of studying abroad, would have been to study in the uni of that country, in that language,,,

So your telling me, they are going abroad to study, but they are all mostly studying in English.

Studying abroad isn't just about the language. Views, ideas, food, culture, attitudes, cross pollination sooooooo much more than language.

It's not always about money it's learning to live together and share ideas, opinions and values.

It might be hard for someone who supports Brexit. It is multinationalism and multiculturalism a genuine belief that we are better together. What binds us is more important than what separates us.

Nations and nationalism has been used to divide and conquer when we should be working together.

Engineering, science, medicine - all professions that rely on English as a common language, so not sure why it’s such a surprise?

EU post grad courses can be much more flexible and have massively lower fees than the UK equivalents.

Gone are the days when you could easily get MSc courses or PhDs funded by NERC or SERC in the UK. In the meantime, many technical positions now require a post grad degree for entry level positions.

Having not looked into it much, and from the way it was portrayed in the previous posts, it sounded like we were denying students courses in foreign languages.

Thanks for that infor.

Can we return to the matter of the stated position of the UK Gov't with regard to the border between NI and RoI - so no border (to meet the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, which I believe we all now agree is an international treaty subject to international law, aside from the potential political/trading risk if the UK breaks the terms) and alignment to EU regs throughout the UK (to satisfy the DUP) when the UK is deemed to have left the EU? And there will be dues to pay to participate. And there wil be no seat at the rule setting table.

It may well be given a new name describing what will be declared a new relationship with the EU - but reality will be 'same old, same old'.

Is this an outcome that leavers would be happy with? There is nothing else on our negotiating table.
I know that some have argued that there may be a different outcome and they are happy to wait and see, leave it to ?whomever to deal as they will know the answers to the questions. Let's accept that to date ?whomever has yet to appear and March 2019, or more realistically October 2018 is rushing towards us.

Having not looked into it much, and from the way it was portrayed in the previous posts, it sounded like we were denying students courses in foreign languages.

If you meant me, then I didn't just mean courses in foreign languages. It's just that it's far easier to pick up the language skills this country needs if you're spending a few years in a country where another language is spoken every day.

JWIM, I have no idea how the UK will square the circle that is the Irish border conundrum. The government has yet to share a workable solution with us, so I can only assume they don't have one. It seems that they've merely kicked the can down the road because they'd much rather discuss trade deals.

It's the lack of responsibility for their choice and failure to acknowledge the problems that pisses me off the most about Leavers

I think you are far too invested in this, but mostly you need to realise that it's not our job to make you feel better. We are leaving a trade club. Big. Whoop.

As explained previously by many posters, yes absolutely people are heavily invested. I am heavily invested in my children's and grandchildren's educational opportunities. Opportunity to study abroad. I am heavily invested in a successful economy because it means jobs. I am heavily invested in scientific research - even though I know little about it.

I am heavily invested and care about lots of issues. Seeing those issues tossed aside with a casual "big whoop" because people couldn't be bothered to investigate the issues before they voted is appalling.

You can't answer because you didn't even know what the questions were. You think it's a 'trade club' when it is so much more e.g. science, education etc.

It is the lack of investment by Brexit supporters, the casual ease that facts are dismissed or ignored the way debate and discussion is downplayed and laughed at, all this dismays me. Futures tossed away on a whim.

@JWIM

Not sure you're going to get an answer ... I've been trying for 18 months.

@Moussemoose

I agree with you up to a point. We all should have known more.

But should we blame the mummmys of this world or our elected (and unelected) representatives for not doing their jobs of representing us in our democratic system? It's clear when you read the responses of a mummmy that direct democracy doesn't work. The choices today are too complicated for the average voter to understand; I cannot say I knew as much then as I do now, though I am more confident of my choice the more I know.

We have a representative democracy that has failed us by asking us a question we were ill-equipped to understand and thus answer. Certainly the referendum process did not have the safeguards in place against the demagogues putting forth falsehoods of £350m per week.

You're probably going to say that - given the referendum decision - we should have done the work to get up to speed before the vote. For some the ability to do the work it is within reach, for the mummmys clearly not.

We are leaving a trade club. Big. Whoop

Except we are not actually going to leave it.

The discussion I’ve repeatedly been trying to have is around the fact we’ve committed to no hard border and remaining fully aligned with EU rules in order to retain access to the SM.

It has been made explicitly clear this access must come at a price in order to maintain the integrity of the EU but even if you insist that it just the EU being mean, favoured nation rules mean it can’t be free access anyway.

Why are leavers resolutely refusing to discuss this?

We are heading for Remaining in all but name.

If you disagree, why can’t you tell us how the hard border and full alignment, that we committed to in the first part of the negotiations, will be overcome if we leave the SM or how you think we can continue to have free access to the SM?

The ‘it’s not my job’ excuse doesn’t wash. Those who’s job it is have to find a solution that takes into account the facts above.

How, exactly, are individual brexit voters meant to 'take responsibility' for simply voting the way they felt best?

I feel zero regret. I don't feel like I owe anyone an explanation for my vote. Being constantly reprimanded for not thinking the same way as remainers is dull. Olivia spamming the threads with her rage and weird posting style puts many off even wanting to join in.

As soon as I see she is posting, I shut the thread down and give her a good 8 hours to tire herself out before I wander back.

Soulstew 👍

I have no regret or guilt either & don't feel I owe anyone an explanation.

The poster you mention had almost every post from yesterday deleted but is still here spamming the thread with spite - tedious.

I read a lot of what is posted, about areas of the issues that I'm not hugely knowledgeable about it, abd begin to think "Gawd, maybe this IS going to be really really difficult". (not thinking "oh i should have voted remain" but "yes, i knew it would be difficult to extract ourselves, and there are aspects of it where i really hadn't anticipated the scale of the challenge") And then i read posters telling me how things are and will be disastrous, with equal confidence and apparent authority, in an area that i know intimately, from a professional point of view (university study abroad/ ERASMUS) and it's total hogwash. This undermines the confidence i feel in the validity of the fearmongering about all the other stuff, to be completely frank.

(short response: We really do not need to panic about ERASMUS)

Every single idea that can be thought up on any of the issues will have problems. There is no perfect solution to anything. Any idea we come up with would be torn apart, no matter what. Any slight negative would blown into huge mountains etc. I mean, some students who may want to study abroad might have to fill in some forms! Gasp!!! My pearls are shattering in my vice like clutches. Not.

That’s just a cop out soulstew

I agree the student point, whilst important to some, is not the biggest factor in Brexit by a long way.

Why can’t you even begin to discuss the fact we’re heading for Leaving in name only because of the pledges already made.

Soulstew posters are asking why you voted the way you did. A very reasonable question to which there is no specific response.

I am not reprimanding you at all I am asking why you made that decision. You and most Brexit supporters refuse to engage. The issue is not that you think differently to me but your silence and refusal to engage suggests there was no thinking at all!

I posed several reasonable and polite questions yesterday all of which were totally ignored.

OliviaD68 the issue is we were expected to make an informed decision and direct democracy is predicted on that. The electorate is educated ( ha!) to work in a representative democracy.

The responsibility shifts in direct democracy and, as is made clear in these threads, the level of responsibility, self education and engagement just didn't happen.

A referendum was entirely inappropriate for the UK.

However, a democracy is only as good as it's electorate and we all must bear some responsibility. Obviously some more than others.....

The thing is though, it's actually none of your business why I voted out. I did, and enough others did too, so, we're leaving.

The demands to know our every single opinion on every aspect of this whole thing is pointless. And, even if someone gives you a good shot at an answer, you then move on to demand her opinions on another aspect of it.

I could say, for example, I hate French cheese. I know a bit about cheese, and have decided that life out of the French cheese zone is best for me. My answer would be picked apart, mocked, and then, if I stick out the onslaught, I am expected to also be an expert on German beer!

soulstew you are just being ridiculous now in order to avoid taking accountability for your decision.

Why can’t you discuss the fact we are still going to end up paying the EU for access to the SM and abiding by their rules?

I have taken accountability, thanks, just not to you.

Why can’t you discuss the fact we are still going to end up paying the EU for access to the SM and abiding by their rules?

I don't think we will. Just a hunch. No links. No stats. Just raw opinion

Well, based on the facts of the situation, your ‘hunch’ is delusional

I'm happy though. Maybe you should spend one day as a brexiteer! C'mon, join us, we have unicorns and rainbows!

I don't think we will. Just a hunch. No links. No stats. Just raw opinion

Actually, that perfectly illustrates the problem here.

Despite all the facts and realities of the situation Leavers are still basing their thoughts on nothing more than feelings and emotions.

It’s absolute madness.

ommward And then i read posters telling me how things are and will be disastrous, with equal confidence and apparent authority, in an area that i know intimately, from a professional point of view (university study abroad/ ERASMUS) and it's total hogwash.
The discussion about universities and the EU was not really focussed on the Erasmus scheme though, was it? We talked about the drop in EU student applications, young people being denied affordable access to EU universities in future (as full-time registered students, not on a temporary exchange scheme like Erasmus), and - if FOM is removed - whether EU students would be subject to the UKVI engagement monitoring that other overseas students are subject to at present. Are you also going to deny those concerns? Do you have access to a different set of statistics that shows that EU student applications are growing, for example, or that the removal of FOM will not detrimentally affect UK students who wish to study full-time in another European country?
You have been very selective by dimissing concerns about Erasmus (barely mentioned) while ignoring all the other concerns raised. Maybe, as you 'know the area intimately' you can answer some of them. If you work in the HE sector, you will know that many UK universities are struggling financially. In the area where I live, the two nearest universities employ around 7000 people and both have been operating redundancies/voluntary severance schemes and closing courses. Both have seen reductions in EU applicants and loss of EU staff already. Is that 'hogwash', too?

@Bearbehind

Your assumption of paying for access to the SM/CU is rational. It's the only solution that makes any "sense", though why we would decide to lose control when we wanted to gain it is a bit weird.

What makes you so sure that your type of good sense will prevail? That the UK's institutions will prevent a disaster? I am losing faith in the UK's democratic institutions. I was worried about the US too, now not so much.