Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

[RedToothBrush]

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

What I wonder is, do you lose those rights if you return to the UK temporary?

That in itself is a problem.

If not, then I wonder with DH and I whether it's worth going to the EU asap getting those rights and having the option. Living abroad has always been on the cards and for DH to advance his career he may need to. If he doesn't have those rights would he be at a disadvantage to not have them?

Quite significant for opportunities of young Brits and leaves open the possibility of a sudden brain drain in either event.

Headbangers are easily fooled.

I'm not counting my chickens on that one.

It's been pointed out by us more than once that quite a number of 'EU rules' 'imposed' upon us, are actually international agreements, which we would adopt anyway. We are of course, losing influence on the wider international stage as well as throwing away our influence in the EU, because we pretended that we didn't have any say.

The UK leave the EU but not the CU/SM. The UK retains its obligations but relinquishes any power or say.

Canada not in the CU. Has complex rules on origin.

Say we import chicken at none EU standard, then all products containing chicken going to the EU would need to be checked and have paperwork to demonstrate it was UK produced chicken which complied with EU standard.

Or we could choose not to import the chicken to make it easier for our home grown producers.

Canada option would be a nightmare. Plus WTO and most favoured nations would be watching very carefully to challenge legally.

At present I think the UK want Canada. It looks more likely to be Canada. You want to hope it's closer to Norway.

I am fairly happy with what I have heard and understood so far. Not keen at all about any alignment with the ECJ but at least TM has got it down to 8 years rather than the 15 the EU wanted.
I think if we get a decent free trade deal then this will solve many of the CU/SM/border problems.
One of the main things want to see is that we can do our own trade deals with the rest of the world and that we are not shackled to the SM and stuck with the EU deals only.

Eurosluggard @ eurosluggard
PREDICTION: In Phase 2 of Brexit talks, UK will again struggle in vain to resist the EU’s terms (choose something similar to Canada FTA or something similar to Norway/EEA). In the end, it will talk up a few minor differences as proof that it has secured Canada-plus or EEA-minus.

John Rowan @ jrowanbxl
Whichever option it chooses will be rebranded as a special EU-UK partnership with no mention of either Canada or Norway

At present I think the UK want Canada

I assume this is to appease the headbangers? If Canada are not in the CU then how can we implement a Canada style agreement, whilst maintaining the alignment of the CU?

Nicola Sturgeon‏
@NicolaSturgeon
An aside - a UK government that is able to say that come what may, it will avoid hard borders with Ireland/NI after Brexit can never again tell Scotland that independence would mean a hard border between Scotland and rUK

What Armenia's new agreement with the EU means

But adhering to 'common values' and building a truly democratic and corruption-free European state will mostly depend on the Armenian government's political will, and it still needs to prove that all this is not mere rhetoric

euobserver.com/opinion/140017

To be put in brexiters' pipes and smoked.
No human rights: no trade. Over the short to medium term.

Isabel oakeshott @ isabeloakeshott
Many Brexiteers will be dead before the ECJ releases its chilling grip on this country #sellout

You won, get over it Isabel.

I don't understand how a Canada+ or Canada- deal can be most likely, while still ensuring an open border in NI? What am I missing?

Many Brexiteers will be dead before the ECJ releases its chilling grip on this country #sellout

I hope the younger generation have seen sense by then.and apply to go back in. I expect to be dead, but I am not a brexiter.

UK citizens in EU and EU citizens in UK and their families will be guaranteed full EU rights
ONLY if said EU (or Brits) are meeting the criteria for the full residency.
There has been no definition of what those criteria are for Eu citizens in the U.K. We have a pretty good idea of what they are for Brits in the EU.

Nit as simple as it looks....

In particular, so far, all the most vulnerable (SAHP, carer, no Continuous employment for 5 years etc...) are still under the threat of being ‘sent away’.
The hostile environment hasn’t disappeared.

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen

And it may well be that the Good Friday Agreement - which is why UK cannot leave the ECHR - will also be the reason why UK will not leave the Single Market.

If so, bringing peace to Northern Ireland also shaped UK's overall relationship with Europe for at least a generation.

What I wonder is, do you lose those rights if you return to the UK temporary?
You do if you go away for more than 5 years (from the 2 years initially stated, at least for EU citizens in the UK).
Tbf, 5 years is quite a lot.

Isn't Oakeshott's "complaint" a chilling acknowledgement of the age profile of those that voted for Brexit?

ie those that had no long term stake in the future of the UK

Peregrina

UK produced stuff to EU standard. But we can import non EU standard goods. It affects our exports though, as like Canada when we export to EU we would need to prove origin of product and all its components.

So we could import yarn from India and dye from Chile on our own terms. If we want to export clothes to EU tariff free it would need to be Yorkshire yarn and Cornish dye and have paperwork to prove it was British not Indian / Chilean.

So in sectors we trade heavily with the EU on, and don't want barriers we would be wise not to make deals otherwise the paperwork would be a nightmare.

The example of chicken is perhaps a better one. It makes it difficult for us to do an deal on food with the US without consequences for British business. But hey we have the freedom to do it.

It's a fucking nonsense and unless our trade negotiaters and government really understand this we could tie ourselves in our own knots.

It could be fine for the car industry. BUT. Only if we don't import parts from outside the EU. And it might that we can't import any single tiny component or that might affect cars.

Given the amount of trade we do with the EU, because of distance, how the fuck does it help us really free us to make more trade deals?

That's my understanding of it at least.

Evening Standard‏Verified account @standardnews
Sadiq Khan to commission his OWN papers to study impact of Brexit

While national BBC is horrendous, BBC London is like Radio free Europe, if you can watch its evening news, I recommend it.

London is more and more like an EU city state.

Broadly agree with David Allen Green analysis that No Brexit and No Brexit are now off the table.

Difficult to see how full SM now likely, given concessions on citizens rights (implies acceptance of end of FoM) and very limited ECJ role with UK supremacy. However also looking like Deal will meet Labour's tests on access to SM, which were lifted as a DD quote.

Hermoine thinking the same as you about residency rights. However the document talks about an Independent EU arbiter based in the UK as a reference point for EU Nats (ie much better than the UK Home Office) and also lots of mentions of "facilitating" rights as opposed to "strict" adherence to rules.

• sorry typo - No Brexit and No Deal Brexit off the table per DAG

Digital privacy is also to be allocated according to EU status inside Britain.
lurking and red posted on this ages ago, but it's also becoming mainstream:

Theresa May is planning to introduce huge regulations on the way the internet works, allowing the government to decide what is said online

Particular focus has been drawn to the end of the manifesto, which makes clear that the Tories want to introduce huge changes to the way the internet works

Some people say that it is not for government to regulate when it comes to technology and the internet," it states. "We disagree

Senior Tories confirmed to BuzzFeed News that the phrasing indicates that the government intends to introduce huge restrictions on what people can post, share and publish online

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/theresa-may-internet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

Putin's got the same plan?

And didn't you say lurking that it would be quite interesting to enforce?

But then mass deportations and death, media silencing, encouraged disabled deaths, shut down of legislature, mass poverty and homelessness, seems to have been easy enough for the Brexit tory government.

Any Brexiter who says otherwise is liar.

Don't get too exited, you EU lovers. This is not the Agreement on the UK leaving the EU. It is an agreement to talk about all matters, and is still governed by the crucial principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

Let's see how this pans out. My guess is that we will still end up leaving with no deal and trading on WTO, which will be fine by lots of us.

Peter Bone on DP yesterday. The level of discussion always amazes me. The presenters don't really tax an interviewee. You may as well have a soapbox and just let them whittle on without pretence of analysis.

I personally can't decide if I think Bone is either thick, a liar or both. He said the border issue would disappear if there was a FTA. That is a downright untruth. It would not solve it. Why didn't JoCo take him to book on that? And the 'EU would be rushing back to talk to us' if they walked away. Interesting that he says they don't have to put tarriffs on goods and there could be an open border from their side. Well, he suggests WTO. So is the same in Calais? No duties, no tarriffs, no checks.

He said it would be absurd for the gov't to carry out impact assessments across the country because of how many types of Brexit you could have. So, the 'will of the people' not so clear as to what happen, then.

As for the Vicky Ford who whittled on about 'we're not going to undercut Irish farmers'. It is much, much bigger than agriculture. And is not about undercutting.

I'm still trying to get my head around it. At first (and second, and third) glance it looks like a big fudge and some cans being kicked down the road.

I hope somebody can explain the full detail of the citizens' rights as it is not clear at all to me (to my inexpert readings, it seems like Hermione has the best understanding of the implications) - and like RTB I am wondering whether our family ought to be hurrying to move to an EU country ASAP if that would secure FOM rights.