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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2017 14:00

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

OP posts:
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LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 15:57

The language of Wilde, Shaw and Sheridan.

It's an old "Yes Prime Minister" allusion ... They are all Irish Smile

PattyPenguin · 12/12/2017 16:35

Wilde, Shaw and Sheridan were technically Irish, in that they were from Ireland, but their families belonged to the Protestant Ascendancy (though in Wilde's case his mother had nationalist and Catholic sympathies).

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 16:43

Wilde, Shaw and Sheridan were technically Irish, in that they were from Ireland, but their families belonged to the Protestant Ascendancy (though in Wilde's case his mother had nationalist and Catholic sympathies).

You know, it is possible to spoil humour with too much detail Grin.

I thought GBS was quite an Irish nationalist ?

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 12/12/2017 16:50

I'm remain, have a decent job, pension, mortgage and kids.

Why don’t the centrists appeal to me?

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 16:55

Dominic Grieve offers backing to a sifting committee for Henry VIII powers

Once again, I'm imagining what Corbyn could do with those powers.

HashiAsLarry · 12/12/2017 16:55

I used to ask myself the same of Blair eee. In theory that should have been right up my street, but I just couldn't vote for him. Though I raised that with a Labour activist at the march for Europe in the summer and he said he would be a rich man if he had a penny for everytime someone said that to him! So at least I'm not alone.

HashiAsLarry · 12/12/2017 16:59

I wouldn't want any government to have those powers. Especially as politicians not being trustworthy is meant to be quite universally accepted.

woman11017 · 12/12/2017 17:00

Flowers Grieve is a tory.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 17:03

I know, and I even prefaced the tweet about how the rebels might succeed on this occasion with the disclaimer that I didn’t think it would actually happen but hope is hard to quash Sad

Peregrina · 12/12/2017 17:12

Once again, I'm imagining what Corbyn could do with those powers.
I just look forward to the Tories complaining when they eventually leave Office.

MidnightCaterer · 12/12/2017 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 17:26

Joe Pike
@joepike
NEW: Newton Abbot MP Anne Marie Morris who used the 'N word' at a public meeting has had the Conservative whip restored. Says: “I would like to take this opportunity to apologise again for using such inappropriate and offensive language."

James O'Brien
@mrjamesob
It gets you thrown off Big Brother but not out of the Conservative Party.

woman11017 · 12/12/2017 17:32

MidnightCaterer we've all been wondering why that is.

'n' word and another alleged tory rapist.
Tory MP’s chief of staff from Chelmsford accused of raping parliament worker
www.essexlive.news/news/tory-mps-chief-staff-chelmsfordaccused-914531

hope is hard to quash
I always wonder what old Nelson Mandela would have said or advised. We do need a brave wise lawyer princess or prince right now.

He was imprisoned by those who funded Leave. Quite a few now 'cuddly' tories banned him and supporting him cos he was a 'terrorist'
The poll tax police attack wasn't too surprising after the police attacks on those who picketed the apartheid south african embassy.

It'll be a long haul, but things change.

lonelyplanetmum · 12/12/2017 17:58

Would it really help if DD went? Is it better to have anyone competent in that role?

If it hadn't been for him there may have been wriggle room in May's agreement to agree. Now thanks to DD, the EU have been put on notice and are firming the commitment up by putting appropriate wording into an enforceable agreement.

I think having lying liabilities at the helm is actually better to defeat the 'exit at any price' agenda.

thecatfromjapan · 12/12/2017 18:01

Sad @Pain

I think the Referendum and its fall-out has made me feel that the centreground is very precious and requires active involvement, even protection. It feels, to me, anyway, rather undefended right now. I guess I feel I have a duty to speak up for it - whatever my own political inclinations. But that's an inclination right there, I suppose.

thecatfromjapan · 12/12/2017 18:04

David Davis certainly appears to be a liability.

But May isn't much better. She lied to the Queen in regard to having already negotiated a majority to enable a government. And she did the same when she went off to Brussels without having secured the DUP's assent - which was a profound diplomatic fail. And the EU knows she hasn't secured Cabinet approval for any negotiating position.

It's really not a good look in terms of international diplomacy.

It's, frankly, incredible. I think this would be inconceivable 20 years ago.

thecatfromjapan · 12/12/2017 18:06

Once again, I'm imagining what Corbyn could do with those powers

I genuinely can't believe it will worse than this. The current situation absolutely astonishes me.

I just hope I'm right.

thecatfromjapan · 12/12/2017 18:14

The first thing a truly ethical government would do would be to repeal those powers. Sad

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 18:38

I stumbled across this and although it's specifically about the situation in America, I think it's useful here too. Courtesy of Melissa McEwan:

This is a blog about teaspoons.

It is a blog about feeling: All I ever do is try to empty the sea with this teaspoon; all I can do is keep trying to empty the sea with this teaspoon. And about remembering that a thousand people with teaspoons can move more earth than a dumptruck.

It is a blog about increments of measurement so infinitesimally tiny they haven't been given names, about glitches in the Matrix so swift and subtle that they are more easily missed than noticed, about tangible particles of a thing called progress not visible to the naked eye.

It is a blog about hope—not the kind that's packaged and sold in anti-aging creams, soda pop cans, or even political campaigns—but the real thing: A hopefulness that radiates like whoa from the pores of indefatigably optimistic dreamers, who close their eyes and tilt their faces up toward the sun and imagine a future where equality and freedom are not aspirational concepts, but defining features of every human life.

It is a blog about futures formidable and vast.

It is a blog about connection, and the realization that we are all in this thing together, and the resolve to be all in, because we make a difference in this world, for good or ill, because we know there is no neutral; there is no moral ambiguity in staying silent; there is only standing up and saying no to the indignities one human visits upon another, or saying yes.

It is a blog of wildly unreasonable expectations, because unreasonable expectations are the seeds of progress.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., a man who knew well the perfidy of moderation, of the harm of pretending there were sidelines on which to stand, and of the need to advocate unyieldingly for progress, is not remembered for giving a speech about his resignation to the status quo. He is remembered because he admonished us not to wallow in the valley of despair and exhorted us to envision big things and told us to never be satisfied with less. He said to the world, "I have a dream," and that dream was what many people might have called in its time (and may call still) an unreasonable expectation.

Eradicating any kind of bigotry is, by definition, an unreasonable expectation—because institutional bigotry is deeply entrenched. Prejudice is ancient. Only a fool would imagine it can be overcome.

Except, of course, that it can be. Bit by bit. Particle by particle. Teaspoon by teaspoon. Person by person. Prejudice is ancient, but it dies with its every carrier and must be taught again. And it can be unlearned. Bit by bit. Particle by particle. Teaspoon by teaspoon. Person by person.

Patience, it takes, and boundless tenacity, to create people filled with expansive love and intractable respect for one another in a culture that casts us as enemies.

And it takes unreasonable expectations, the seeds of progress.

Thus, every time someone asks me, greets my bellicose display of unreasonable expectations with, the exceedingly un-progressive question, "What do you expect?" I will answer the same as I always do: I expect more.

Even now. Especially now—in a moment where we are aggressively overwhelmed by divisive, hateful, regressive maneuvering with the sinister intent to demoralize us. To telegraph that we should expect naught but disappointment; that we are helpless to do anything but stand to the side, silently witnessing the dismantlement of everything we value.

I still, and will ever, expect more.

Of course Trump is riding roughshod over our norms, laws, and very democracy. What do you expect?

I expect more.

Of course the Republican Party is abetting him. What do you expect?

I expect more.

Of course some Democrats are capitulating. What do you expect?

I expect more.

Of course lots of people aren't paying attention, don't care, turning their eyes away from the chilling creep of fascism, as if it will only matter once it starts to affect their lives, by which point it will be too late. What do you expect?

I expect more.

You can't expect for anything to be any different.

The fuck I can't. I expect more.

I'm not ironically detached, I'm not apathetic, I'm not resigned, and I'm not contemptuous of bleeding hearts or "identity politics" or genuine patriotism in defense of justice and pluralism, rooted in audacious visions of what this nation could be.

I am a greedy bitch with voracious expectations, and I dream long and lustfully of a better world that is both my muse and objective. I want it like the cracked earth of the desert wants rain, and I will neither apologize for nor amend my desire because of its remove from the here and now; its distance encourages my reach.

I expect resistance against tyranny, institutional bigotry, dominionism, and war-mongering, because it is our duty as citizens, as human beings. I expect more from myself, and from all of us, as oppressors careen toward obliteration, because complacency is complicity.

And because if we don't expect more, something better than a cacophonous descent into ruin, then we are certainly never going to get it.

Don't bother asking me what I expect.

You already know the answer.

HermioneAndTheSniffle · 12/12/2017 18:40

www.freemovement.org.uk/immigration-bail-commencement-15-january/

If anyone had any doubts about the position of the government regarding immigration (and that includes eu citizens despite the nice email TM had the kindness to send us).
So detention centres will have even more powers and itbwill be possible to detain people in the basis of possible FUTURE non compliance with bail.
Please note the POSSIBLE and FUTURE.
They are in effect that it’s ok to jail people for no reason at all than they looked like they should.

HermioneAndTheSniffle · 12/12/2017 18:43

Pain it’s a lovely blog!
And very relevant in the U.K. too....

woman11017 · 12/12/2017 18:58

HermioneAndTheSniffle thanks for posting that.

British people are working in these detention centres and HO?

I know what Dr King and the SCLC would have done.

Mightybanhammer · 12/12/2017 19:24

Slightly off topic but watching the Roy Moore rally in Alabama on C 4.
Disturbing on so many levels.
The 'drain the swamp' rhetoric coupled with the Nazi style staging chilled my soul.

lonelyplanetmum · 12/12/2017 20:22

On the subject of expecting more.I expect more from my MP.
I wrote to ask him to support a final Parliament vote on any eventual EU departure deal (Amendment 7).

I received the following reply.

" Brexit Secretary David Davis has announced that any agreement with the EU will indeed require primary legislation to be put before Parliament for approval – this will contain all the elements of the withdrawal agreement and will give Parliament the opportunity to debate, scrutinise and vote on the final agreement, which will only hold if Parliament approves it.
This delivers on what Amendment 7 to Clause 9 intends and was welcomed by Dominic Grieve and others who proposed the amendment. This and related amendments are yet to be debated, but I believe the Government has made a meaningful concession here."

Does this answer my question, as to how he is voting?

QuentinSummers · 12/12/2017 20:33

Shock wtf

Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only
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