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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2017 14:00

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

OP posts:
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TheElementsSong · 12/12/2017 10:34

Thank you for flying the (EU) flag woman!

Peregrina · 12/12/2017 10:35

This is not the tory party anymore. It's a different beast.

Indeed so, but most Tory activists, who tend to be elderly, and of the noblesse oblige tendency, haven't cottoned on to this. They like Theresa May because she's one of them, Church going, hard working, smartly turned out, but not one to question.

As for food banks - they didn't exist in the past they are a new thing imported from the US so it's very difficult to compare the fact that there are more now than when? The didn't exist in the last labour government.

Oh dear Corcory, you are usually one of the few sensible Leavers, but this is the J R-M defence. They didn't exist in the last Labour Govt? Perhaps because the Labour Govt, which had plenty of faults, hadn't declared war on the poorly and the sick?

Peregrina · 12/12/2017 10:38

I hope you tell your tennis club why you are leaving Hasenstein.

Poor, not poorly, I think I was going to say poorly paid.

HesterThrale · 12/12/2017 10:42

Twitter response from Eddie Marsan to latest voting intent poll.

Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only
Peregrina · 12/12/2017 10:43

Fly the EU flag with a beanie. The weather is just right now.

For those who don't knit an alternative is to buy a blue beret and cut stars out of yellow felt and sew them on.

I see that ebay has got in on the act also. I missed a trick there, I should have knitted a few for sale.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 10:46

This was from yesterday but I can’t find the context in which it Was said

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor
Jeremy Corbyn suggests delaying Brexit date past March 29, 2019. Labour’s stance gets softer all the time.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/12/2017 10:55

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Hasenstein · 12/12/2017 11:09

Peregrina

Oh, I shall certainly make it quite clear why I no longer feel welcome there, although they're all such hard-core Brexit fans that they'll probably be glad to see the back of me - I'm already seen as a Labour-loving weirdo. They can't understand why I should be a leftie; having run my own business for years they automatically expect me to be a full-on Tory like the rest of them. Any criticism of the government is met with "Oh, I suppose you think Jeremy Corbyn would do better!".

I also think they suspect that I was induced to stray from their "Britain is better, so wave the flag" view because I've lived abroad for many years and have a non-British wife. Not one of them has ever lived abroad, so they naturally don't have any basis for comparison or even any idea of how life is in the rest of the EU. Having spent their lives in a small rural(ish) Tory-voting Home Counties village, they're all either well off or have healthy pensions, so they think everything is great. Which it no doubt is for them.

It's not just the EU they resent, either, it's anywhere else in the UK. As an incomer from Yorkshire, I'm also condemned as a "bloody Northerner". The South-East bubble can be a horribly smug place.

Peregrina · 12/12/2017 11:15

The South-East bubble can be a horribly smug place.

Tell me about it, I live there. My only consolation is that the majority of Tories are getting on a bit, i.e. over 75, apart from a few braying younger ones.

mrsreynolds · 12/12/2017 11:28

...and it’s going to be a cold winter ❄️

DrivenToDespair · 12/12/2017 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 11:40

Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account
@guyverhofstadt
Remarks by David Davis that Phase one deal last week not binding were unhelpful & undermines trust. EP text will now reflect this & insist agreement translated into legal text ASAP #Brexit

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/12/david-davis-has-damaged-trust-in-the-uk-for-brexit-talks-says-verhofstadt?CMP=twt_gu

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 11:41

So, that's me and Lurking with direct experience of NHS cuts

Just to make clear, in my case, it's the commercial decision of a pharmaceutical manufacturer that has led to my medicine being unavailable. It's not clear yet whether there is a funding issue with the NHS whereby they could still purchase the medicine but aren't, or whether there's been a procedural failure to alternatively source following the MHRA being informed of the stoppage.

I've had the relevant details from the MHRA. I would be taking this up with my MP, but one of their researchers fancies themselves as "scoop" Jones, and has fobbed with off with a useless Google result. If I thought they were being paid, I'd be quite cross.

So, to be precise, in keeping with Brexit, I can't say categorically that my woes are directly a funding issue. Money is involved, but it could be the NHS could have sourced the medicines but failed.

However, better vision would be wasted right now. Everythings white Smile.

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 11:44

But buying alcohol in the UK - well its bloody hard work.

If alcohol is so dangerous, why not ban it ?

Vaguely related, I notice with interest there are moves silently afoot to band "sharp things in private possession" and to give the police the power to search without warrant for such objects. I suspect that flew under the radar for readers of this thread - bearing in mind you are probably among the best-informed people on the internet ....

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 11:45

I'm in Raab-country so feel your pain too. We're stuffed to the rafters with True Blues.

Thanks woman for taking a stand Star

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 11:48

lurking I posted this yesterday about a tool to track prices of drugs (I didn't really understand it but it seemed something that might be of interest to you)

en goldacre‏Verified account
@bengoldacre

NEW TOOL KLAXON.

We made an interactive explorer for the costs of drugs in the NHS drugs tariff.

BEHOLD the amazing graphs.

THRILL at the data on when things go out of stock, and rocket prices.

SHARE if you like.

PHARMACISTS and GPs will enjoy.

ebmdatalab.net/new-openprescribing-tool-drug-tariff-viewer-with-added-price-concessions-back-to-2010/

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 11:56

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen
Crowing about the "sufficient Progress" document being "legally non-binding" may become the latest of a number of serious unforced errors by UK ministers on Brexit.

Idiotic, needless, self-inflicted setback.

Of course the "sufficient progress" document was not legally binding. It never was.

Everyone who cared knew this.

So the crowing just had the unhappy effect of the UK looking as if it had agreed a serious document in bad faith.

No wonder EU27 spooked.

The crowing about the document not being "legally binding" is perhaps the purest example imaginable of a politician "talking Britain down".

Kate Bevan‏Verified account
@katebevan
Replying to @davidallengreen
hang on, but we're not supposed to point out that the referendum itself wasn't legally binding? 🤔🤔

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen
The irony that this (potential) serious setback is about a minister crowing about a thing not being legally binding, when the whole of Brexit is based on another thing which was not legally binding.

And remember EU27 will already be uneasy after the failure by May last week to have DUP on board at last week's ceremonial press conference.

Already a lot for EU27 to be sceptical about re UK's genuine commitment to the "Sufficient Progress" report.

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 12:02

Idiotic, needless, self-inflicted setback.

All true. But no suggestion it wasn't deliberate Hmm

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 12:04

PainInTheEar

Thanks for that, ironically despite not being a whizz at stats when studying, I'm quite good slicing and dicing data, so I'll have a dekko.

Ben Goldacre is a legend ... I can recommend for fans.

Cailleach1 · 12/12/2017 12:11

I think that the homeless problem in London has become worse. In the last few years. Just from seeing people on the streets.

I was abroad a little while back and looking at a range of life sized sculptures in the grounds of a hotel. There was one of a person lying prostrate under a tree. The day before I had travelled I had seen around 4 people with sleeping bags in just a tiny part of London. I said to OH 'That reminds me of London'.

Just anecdotal. But I have noticed an increase. Centre Point for youngsters and other organisations do wonderful work. But there is a state failure and they are just picking up the pieces. There are a multitude of reasons, general and particular to individuals. The failure towards people who have been in care doesn't seem to have been addressed. And it has been there for a long time. We don't realise how much we benefit from an extended support network when we have family. It prevents us falling through cracks at different points in our lives.

I am only discussing it from an amateur viewpoint. But there is a failure for some reason. And it seems the gov't are far from addressing the issue. Even implementing policies which maybe increase the problem.

This reminds me at least to give to Centre Point and foodbank collections this Christmas. But it only papering over the cracks. The state needs to address the subsidence. But the Cons couldn't give a fig. They just reinforce their prejudices that some people are 'better' than others. It means they can withdraw responsibility. You can be a hard worker and then get an illness or disability. Or something else can happen. People come from care without the network other people have. The gov't don't acknowledge in any way that others can have much better support systems or less unfortunate things can happen in life which burden people with challenges which make life very difficult.

The deserving poor. No inbuilt disadvantages or state policies are a cause of anything, it seems. Great we all have a level playing field. Like hell, we have.

Cailleach1 · 12/12/2017 12:12

less fortunate, or unfortunate.

Maryz · 12/12/2017 13:14

I thought you lot might be interested in The Irish Times take on the binding/not binding issue (I've posted this elsewhere).

I know there is a paywall, but it should work for most of you, and I suspect it's pretty accurate.

The three possible outcomes are clearly explained. I think that (again) the UK government is being slightly economical with the truth, and are reserving the right to blame Ireland if it all goes to shit.

woman11017 · 12/12/2017 13:27

Even business leaders in fascist countries think brexit's daft. And our Glorious Organ of Truth is reporting it. Hmm
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42315280

LurkingHusband · 12/12/2017 13:33

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/12/11/would-you-like-hormones-gm-and-extra-antibiotics-with-that-how-brexit-threatens-food-security/

Would you like hormones, GM and extra antibiotics with that? How Brexit threatens food security
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/12/11/would-you-like-hormones-gm-and-extra-antibiotics-with-that-how-brexit-threatens-food-security/
erik millstoneChlorine-washed chicken is only one of the foodstuffs the US will want to import into the UK if it secures a bilateral trade deal after the UK leaves the EU. The overuse of antibiotics, hormone-treated beef and dairy and GM crops are commonplace in US farming. British farmers will struggle to compete with these imports unless they abandon EU standards themselves. Together with our reliance on EU agricultural workers and food imports and the impact of slower supply chains, Brexit – particularly if it involves leaving the Single Market and Customs Union – will seriously undermine food security in the UK, says Erik Millstone (University of Sussex).

The UK currently imports about 47% (by value) of all its food, while 31% of our food is currently obtained from other EU Member States. We are therefore heavily dependent on imported foods, and especially on imports from other EU countries, from which we obtain some 66% of total food imports. If the UK leaves the Single Market and Customs Union there will need to be customs and border health checks, which at the very least will slow down the flow of foodstuffs into, and out of, the UK. Transaction costs will rise, domestic UK food prices will inevitably rise, especially and if sterling depreciates against the Euro.

Furthermore, if the UK and EU fail to agree a satisfactory trade deal, and we trade on WTO terms, then standard agricultural tariffs averaging some 22% are most likely to apply to trade between the UK and the EU, which will drive food prices even higher, and aggravate economic, dietary and health inequalities. The UK could set lower tariffs on imports, but doing so would undermine the economic viability of most British farms.

milking parlour
A milking parlour in Minnesota. Photo: CC-BY-NC 2.0 licence
UK farming, food processing and commercial catering all currently rely on visiting workers from other EU member states. If ‘taking back control’ of the UK’s borders prevents, or even discourages, those people from accepting employment in the UK, then the UK’s food supply will suffer, and so too will the viability of UK farming. A very large proportion of veterinary inspectors working for the Food Standards Agency’s Meat Hygiene Service in UK abattoirs are also citizens of other EU countries. Quite a few have already left, in part because the depreciation of sterling has already meant that the value of their UK earnings has sharply declined, and many more are planning to leave. Without them the UK’s supply of home-produced meat would rapidly decline.

If the UK tried to import food from outside the EU, it would inevitably increase the greenhouse gas emissions required to provide our food supply. If, on the other hand, we tried to reduce our reliance on imports, then the emissions from domestic food production will increase. To maintain a food supply that approximates to the patterns to which UK consumers have become accustomed would require rapid intensification and an increased reliance on resources that should be conserved rather than depleted. The concept of ‘sustainable intensification’ has been articulated, but it is not close to being delivered. With the rapid approach of an ill-defined Brexit, the UK needs concrete plans, not wishful thinking.

Imports from the rest of the world will almost certainly be less safe and of lower quality than the EU delivers. The EU has some of the highest food safety standards in the world, even though there remains some room for improvement. Food safety standards in the USA are significantly lower than those in the EU, and standards in most developing countries are significantly below those that prevail in the USA.

There has been much talk of the UK reaching a free trade deal with the USA, which would allow the US to sell all and any of its food and drink products in the UK. The proposal has provoked debates about ‘chlorine-washed chicken’. That discussion focussed on just a fraction of the differences between EU and US food standards. Firstly, in the USA chlorinated water is only one of six types of chemical disinfectant that can lawfully be applied not just to chickens, but also to turkeys, as well as other meats and fish, fruits and vegetables. While the US authorities have deemed those ‘pathogen reduction treatments’ to be acceptably safe, they have done so only by reference to very modest amounts of data, and have ignored both evidence of risks and large gaps in the available data. The EU permits only one of those treatments, namely peracetic acid (which is a mixture of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide) and then only for washing chicken carcasses, but not cuts of meat, and for no other species of meat, fish or vegetables. The EU approach is to require better hygiene in livestock production, abattoirs and meat-cutting plants rather than washing dirty meat with disinfectant.

There are several other respects in which the US food supply is less safe than the EU’s. In November 2017 Sustain, the UK alliance for better food and farming, reported that the sales of antibiotics to livestock farmers had risen by 27% in the USA since 2009, whereas UK farmers had reported a 26% reduction. The overuse of antibiotics in agricultural livestock and their residues in foodstuffs are contributing to the development of antibiotic-resistant infections, and if medical antibiotics are not to lose their effectiveness before new alternatives are developed, the medical and veterinary use of antibiotics must be more tightly controlled, not liberalised.

Another respect in which US food standards are significantly below those of the EU concerns the use of synthetic hormones. Most US beef cattle receive implants of growth-promoting hormones under their skin in an effort to make them gain weight faster. Those hormones are not permitted in the EU, and US beef from treated cattle cannot lawfully be imported into the EU. The US authorities claim the use of those hormones is acceptably safe, but they have only assessed risks to average healthy adults. The EU approach recognises that not all Europeans are average, healthy or adult, and EU scientific advisors have highlighted risks to infants, pre-pubescent adolescents and to those who are immunologically compromised.

US farmers also inject their dairy cows with a synthetic hormone that increases milk production, per unit of feed, but EU scientists have recognised that the treatment results in higher levels of mastitis, in infected udders, which results in a higher ‘somatic cell count’ (i.e. more pus) in the milk and greater use of antibiotics. Consequently that practice is not lawful in the EU, and nor is the import of milk or dairy products from the USA, unless they can be reliably certified as coming from from untreated cows.

Very similar considerations apply to genetically-modified (GM) foods. GM crops are grown very widely in the USA, and almost all soya beans and maize produced in the USA is GM. It would be unrealistic to expect UK consumers to become enthusiastic about GM foods, just because of Brexit. Furthermore, GM ingredients do not have to be declared on food labels in the USA, and doubtless the US would try to insist that the UK changed its labelling rules to match those in the USA, rather than conforming to EU rules.

If the UK were to complete a free trade deal with the USA after Brexit which included food products, not merely would the USA be able to sell its products in the UK, but UK producers would demand the right to use the same technologies – invoking arguments for a ‘level playing field’.

A food system can only be said to be ‘secure’ if it provides sufficiency, sustainability, safety, health and equity. Brexit represents a threat to all of each of these. Those risks could be substantially reduced if the UK were to stay in the Single Market or the Customs Union, or both, but that is not the direction in which the UK government says it wants to go.

This post represents the views of the author and not those of the Brexit blog, nor the LSE. A fuller exploration of the food security issues surrounding Brexit can be found in a paper co-written by the author, A Food Brexit: time to get real: a Brexit Briefing (T Lang, E Millstone & T Marsden), University of Sussex.

Erik Millstone is Emeritus Professor of Science Policy at the Science Policy Research Unit, University of Sussex.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 12/12/2017 13:51

RIckets. In the UK. In 2017.

Daniel Hewitt‏Verified account
@DanielHewittITV
Primary schools with washing machines to wash children's uniforms, where teachers charge parents phones who have no electricity, and give coats, shoes and food to their pupils. The GP who is treating kids for rickets. This is the poverty we have found in the North West in 2017.

twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/940548373551222784