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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2017 14:00

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

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Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2017 07:41

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/12/2017 08:08

HIs tax haven?

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2017 08:36

In a way it is strange to hear all the resentment about Ireland wrt the border and GFA.

It was the UK who said there would be no hard border. Nothing would change. What is the problem now that it is back to the gov't to figure out how to do this?

It can't mean they were being a little duplicitous when they gave all their assurances. Shock

Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2017 08:47

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prettybird · 11/12/2017 08:47

I'm sorry but I can get the picture out of my head of May whinging exclaiming, "Nothing will change, nothing will change!" Grin

20nil · 11/12/2017 08:52

These hard Brexiters will blame anyone for this mess - the Irish, the ‘unelected diplomats in Brussels’, Labour, foreigners, etc... - when of course THEY are responsible for it. Not only for lying during the campaign, but for continuing to lie about what they actually want and wha is actually possible. They are a disgrace.

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2017 08:58

But Mother, they get their EU rights from their Irish identity from the island of Ireland. Quite a lot of people don't or never regarded themselves as British. Don't forget Irish people across the whole island were regarded as British until independence. That didn't make them British.

Which goes back to Winston Churchill and "We have always found the Irish a bit odd. They refuse to be English."

That image is imprinted on my brain with that phrase, too, pretty. The second time with emphasis.

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2017 09:01

Of course the right to an Irish passport does not exclude a British identity. You may be entitled by Droit du sang/sol.

Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2017 09:02

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mrsreynolds · 11/12/2017 09:17

I predicted this
It'll get worse
😔

Peregrina · 11/12/2017 09:17

From the remain camp anyway. I can understand that a little bit, to be fair.

I am a Remainer, and as far as I am aware, it's not the Remain camp which is complaining, or not about the Irish. The complaint is with our own Government for completely ignoring virtually half of the voting population. My complaint is also with those like Ian Paisley Jnr, who crack on to be more British than I am, but then go scurrying for their Irish passports.

As someone who is really English but grew up in Wales, I am not solely prepared to claim an English identity, so prefer to be British.

Since it's only 20 years since the GFA it means that only now are a generation of Irish children reaching adulthood without a background of the Troubles. I think it will take another generation at least before people can really begin to form a new identity. Gerry Adams has gone, Arlene Foster and Paisley need also to go. Except with the Tories Brexit mess up, they have now compromised the Peace, or are trying to.

Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2017 09:26

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Peregrina · 11/12/2017 09:32

if my FOM rights are taken away but my NI cousin can do what she likes with her RoI passport.

My little grandson will be entitle to an Irish passport by virtue of DIL. I am glad, and hope they get on with registering him. It doesn't grate that he can chose to be Irish, it grates about the way our Government has behaved.

I must admit, I wondered about the nationality of people like DH's 'Irish' granny who was born before 1922 in England. What nationality would she have held? It's a bit academic, I don't think she ever applied for a passport and is long deceased.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/12/2017 09:41

Oh dear

Simon Fraser‏Verified account
@SimonFraser00
My strongest impression from @ChathamHouse conf on #Europe in Berlin last week? The shock of seeing UK officials for first time behaving and being treated as a third country, not EU partner. #Brexit #strategicmistake

HashiAsLarry · 11/12/2017 09:43

Most of the anti Irish stuff I've come across is more to do with them apparently sinking brexit, rather than from people upset anyone who opts for Irish or dual nationality retains their rights.

It will get worse too Sad. Not that it's ever been far from the surface.

prettybird · 11/12/2017 09:45

I can't get the picture out of my head of May.... BlushGrin

Motheroffourdragons · 11/12/2017 09:46

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Peregrina · 11/12/2017 09:46

But they haven't sunk Brexit. They've sunk Gove's/Nick Timothy's Brexit, but although some would have us believe that 17 million voted for this, I am quite sure that they didn't.

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2017 09:47

I was looking at registration for a relative who left Ireland and subsequently fought and died with the US army in WWI. Unlucky fellow died in horrible circumstances less than 2 weeks from the war's end. Coming from Ireland, the US registration papers have his nationality as British. The whole island was part of the UK.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/12/2017 09:56

There's a crowd funded legal challenge to review the introductions of "Affordable Care Organisations" in the NHS. The campaign has reached the funding required for the first round and now Stephen Hawking has joined as a claimant for the second round.

More here if anyone's interested:

www.crowdjustice.com/case/jr4nhs-round2/

What are we seeking and why?
We are seeking a judicial review to stop Secretary of State for Health Jeremy Hunt and NHS England from introducing new commercial, non-NHS bodies to run health and social services without proper public consultation and without full Parliamentary scrutiny.

These non-NHS bodies would be called “Accountable Care Organisations” (“ACOs). They would be governed by company and contract law and can be given “full responsibility” for NHS and adult social services.

ACOs were conceived in the US about twelve years ago. In this short clip, two leading American academics talk about the effect of Accountable Care Organisations and private health care in the US. ACOs are being imported into England although they are not recognised in any Act of Parliament.

ACOs would be able to decide on the boundary of what care is free and what has to be paid for. They will be paid more if they save money. They can include private companies (e.g. Virgin in Frimley, Circle in Nottinghamshire), including private insurance and property companies, which can make money from charging. They could also include GP practices, in which case people on their lists would automatically transfer to the ACO in order to be entitled to services. New patients would also have to register with the ACO. They will be allowed to sub-contract all “their” services.

Against the Public Interest
Such commercial ACOs would fundamentally change the NHS and many could profit from a radical reorganisation of health and social services. They would have control over the allocation of NHS and taxpayers’ money. Their accountability for spending it and their obligations to the public would be under commercial contracts, not statutes. This is not in the public interest.

It is also against the public interest that they are being introduced by stealth, without proper public consultation and without full Parliamentary scrutiny.

Just to be clear. Integration of health and care services is a desirable aim, but not whilst their funding and population bases are so different and without new primary legislation. This affects everyone in England.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/12/2017 10:08

From the Guardian

Davis retracts suggestion UK could back out of Brexit deal on Irish border

Yesterday, in an interview on the Andrew Marr Show, David Davis, the Brexit secretary, alarmed the Irish government by appearing to say that assurances about the Irish border given by the UK government in the UK-EU Brexit deal were not legally binding. The full transcript is here news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/10121703.pdf and here is the key quote.

One of the things I’ve always said, is we want to protect the peace process and we also want to protect Ireland from the impact of Brexit for them. So we – you know – this was a statement of intent more than anything else. It was much more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing.

That final sentence - “it was much more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing” - seemed pretty clear. Crucially, Davis’s interview also coincided with some Sunday newspapers claiming that No 10 officials were privately telling Tory Brexiters that some parts of the agreement had no legal force. For example, Edward Malnick in the Sunday Telegraph (paywall)

A senior Eurosceptic with knowledge of the discussions involving Cabinet ministers, including Mr Johnson and Mr Gove, told The Telegraph that No 10 had said a commitment to “full alignment” between the UK and the EU “doesn’t mean anything in EU law”.

A separate source confirmed that a specific Cabinet minister had been told by No 10 aides that the provision was “meaningless” and was simply included to secure Ireland’s approval for the document.

That helps to explain why the Davis interview was seen as evidence that Theresa May signed off the Brexit deal with her fingers crossed behind her back.

On LBC this morning Davis staged a full retreat, camouflaged by an attack on newspapers which he claimed had misreported what he said. A

twitter.com/hendopolis/status/939977376343224320?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Fblog%2Flive%2F2017%2Fdec%2F11%2Ftheresa-may-statement-brexit-mps-commons-davis-seeks-to-heal-rift-with-ireland-over-brexit-deal-politics-live

Neil Henderson

@hendopolis
THE TIMES: Ireland warns May over Brexit #tomorrowspaperstoday

Asked about today’s Times splash, he said:

I’ve never seen a more convoluted piece in a newspaper.

What I actually said yesterday, in terms, was we want to protect the peace process, we want to protect Ireland from the impact of Brexit for them. And I said this was a statement of intent which was much more than just legally enforceable. In other words, of course it is legally enforceable under the withdrawal agreement. But even if that did not happen for some reason, [if] something went wrong, we would still be seeking to provide a frictionless, invisible border with Ireland. They’ve completely twisted my words, I’m afraid.

What we’re saying is, this bit of it, the bit about full alignment argument, on the issues which affect the peace process and the Belfast agreement, we would look to that anyway because one of our absolute underpinning aims is to ensure that Ireland, and particularly the Northern Ireland peace process, is not harmed. And what is most symbolic in that is the absence of a hard border, the absence of border posts, and that sort of thing. And we are quite certain we can do that by technical and other means, even if we end up without a deal with the European Union.

When Nick Ferrari, the presenter, challenged Davis by quoting his actual words from the Marr interview at him, Davis said that he had said “much more than legally enforceable”. He said there had been “a slight misquote”, although it was not clear if by that he meant that he had slightly misspoken when he was on the Andrew Marr show yesterday or if he was accusing Ferrari of misquoting him.

(Reading the Marr transcript, it is fairly clear to me that, if Davis did intend to make the point he is making this morning, then he expressed himself very poorly, because he appeared to say the opposite of what he intended.)

Davis repeated the point again on LBC. He said:

Of course it’s legally enforceable ... It’s more than legally enforceable. In the event that the withdrawal agreement does not happen, then we would still be seeking to maintain an invisible border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. That was the point. I was making the point that it was much more than just in the treaty; it’s what we want to do anyway.

Davis normally adopts a jaunty manner in interviews, but this morning his enforced jollity was very marked. And he was speaking very quickly. It sounded as if he was nervous, knowing that he had messed up a bit yesterday and had a damage-limitation exercise to perform.

woman11017 · 11/12/2017 10:08

Thanks pain Hawkins is a mensch. Smile
And another one:

I’m quitting as a hospital boss: dire NHS funding problems give me no choice Bob Kerslake

Our deficit at King’s College hospital, London, means we will be put into financial special measures, while what the NHS really needs is a fundamental rethink

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/10/quit-hospital-boss-nhs-chair-kings-college-hospital-london

woman11017 · 11/12/2017 10:12

They’ve completely twisted my words
'You Irish'

Bottom line with brexit is they want to be racist but have trade deals with those they insult.

They need to be sent on an old school racial awareness course and get out of the bloody way while we step in and fix their mess.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/12/2017 10:17

More from the Guardian

In his LBC interview David Davis (see 10.01am), the Brexit secretary, said the UK was “quite certain” it could avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, even if it does not get a free trade deal that it believes would obviate the need for such a border. Davis said:

What is most symbolic [of the preservation of the peace process] is the absence of a hard border, the absence of border posts, and that sort of thing. And we are quite certain we can do that by technical and other means, even if we end up without a deal with the European Union.

It is worth pointing out that the European commission does not agree. In its own commentary (pdf) on the UK-EU Brexit deal, it is unusually blunt about this. It says”

Whilst the United Kingdom remains committed to protecting and supporting continued NorthSouth cooperation across the full range of contexts and frameworks, including after withdrawal, the common understanding provides that the United Kingdom aims to achieve this protection and the avoidance of a hard border through the overall EU-United Kingdom relationship. This intention seems hard to reconcile with the United Kingdom’s communicated decision to leave the internal market and the Customs Union.

LurkingHusband · 11/12/2017 10:23

They’ve completely twisted my words

No David, dear. You managed that all by yourself. With no help too. Haven't you come along this term ?