Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

[RedToothBrush]

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

Slight diversion, but I am enjoying the BBCs more intellectual push back against Brexit ... Once again "Digging for Britain" pointed out that Britain - Great Britain - The British Isles - what have you - has never been somewhere that sat in splendid isolation apart from Europe.

Then Dr. Sam Willis looks at Britains history of being invasion.

(I was moved by the discovery at Vindolanda of childrens shoes meaning the soldiers had their families with them).

I was reading the piece in the Guardian colour supplement yesterday about the places with the youngest and oldest populations in England, namely Central Manchester and Minehead. Minehead was 60:40 in favour of Brexit. One of the spokespeople, mindful of the being old enough to have voted in the '75 Referendum, said that what they voted for then was not the same as voted now. I thought, poppycock. We no more knew what you were voting for last time, but Harold Wilson was a much cannier operator and didn't call a Referendum until he knew he'd get a win, so our votes were guided towards Yes then, in the same way that they were guided towards Leave this time. The argument that the EEC/EU changed is also nonsense: the whole of the UK has changed since then. Who, 42 years ago would have thought e.g. that we would have Gay marriage, or something like 40% or more of children being born to parents not married, or have zero hours contracts, or numerous other things? Don't forget, we've been members; if we couldn't be bothered to vote against changes we didn't like then don't grumble. I then thought that as true blue Tory voting area, why are you a depressed town? I doesn't look as though the Tories are protecting your interests. Finally, I thought what will Brexit give you? It will destroy your farming, it will almost certainly run down your health care provision, and don't expect the Tories to improve your transport links.

But I still felt depressed at the way they blamed the EU, when the problems lay at home. But good luck to you, who will you blame?

Which bit of Canada's MFN clause in CETA does DD not understand when he states he is aiming for a "Canada Plus Plus Plus" deal?

Is it that he does understand but is spouting vaguely plausible bollocks (to someone who isn’t following this too closely) to maintain the veneer of acting in the national interests while merrily doing whatever it is the overloads want? Ie much like the rest of Brexit.

Kate Hoey 71
Dennis Skinner 85
Graham Stringer 67
Ronnie Campbell 74
Kelvin Hopkins 76
Frank Fields 75
John Mann 57

Average age 72.

@ "horizontal CV"

Average age 72.

Yet people over 80, 85 are/were probably Remain ? (Like my now late DM, who wasn't able to vote last year due to dementia).

And the people I met 20 years ago, in their 60s and 70s then, who were avowedly pro-EU. The most interesting person being someone who was captured at Dunkirk, and spent 5 years as a POW, only to be marched across Europe a few days ahead of the Red Army.

Kate Hoey 71 Dennis Skinner 85 Graham Stringer 67 Ronnie Campbell 74 Kelvin Hopkins 76 Frank Fields 75 John Mann 57

None of these people had to march through villages - at gunpoint -
having to ignore the cries for help.

Dennis Skinner was still at school during the war. It still astounds me that he would vote with the Tories - being against them for a lifetime. As one who was always against the EEC/EU I would expect him to abstain on this.

Prettybird - It was Andrew Marr who suggested the type of deal DD was going for was 'crudely' a Canada plus deal. And DD said it was more like a Canada plus plus deal. He has always said we want a bespoke free trade deal.

As for the MFN clauses of the Canada deal, yes they are problematic but they only concern foreign investors and are to do with them being able to use an older treaty with another country to regulate their investments but as we won't have any 'older ' treaties then I don't see what it has to do with our trade deal.

David Davies doesn't do detail, he just does bombast. Like Johnson. And that's the view from his own party. So his waffle is largely born out of ignorance for detail.

Nothing new there of course

My parents (same age as Skinner; remember the war) strongly pro-EU for 'peace reasons'. Voted Tory for decades; stopped last year and never will again.

Did any of you actually watch the Andrew Marr show this morning? Listen to the non answering SNP guy, KS and then DD and tell me who answered the questions and gave as full answers as he could or who just gave a load of vague political twaddle?

Listen to the non answering They're all hostages now too, allegedly to the 'people'. We all are, that's the story anyway.

Did any of you watch the Andrew Marr show this morning?

Listen to the non answering SNP guy, KS and then DD and tell me who answered the questions and gave as full answers as he could or who just gave a load of vague political twaddle?

Sorry for the double posting.

Math I wouldnt agree that the current Irish Government is at risk of failing st the moment. Recent events which culminated in the resignation of Frances Fitzgerald clearly showed that no one , either politicians or the general public, are in the mood for an election. Leo's ratings, and FG are up this week.FF's Mihad the wind on his side and managed to pull off

Mine, 79 and 80, strongly Remain too (but both Labour activists).

Good idea corcory will watch it later after the snooker

Has anyone seen that??

evolvepolitics.com/mainstream-media-silent-as-jeremy-corbyn-wins-international-peace-prize/

JC winning international peace prize in Geneva.

No one seems to have reported anything about it. Why???

Sorry I posted too soon and now have accidentally deleted my even longer post - lucky for ye all you don't have to read it.

But in a nutshell, the Irish Governments ratings shot up this week, no one either public or politician , wants an election. SF are unlikely to be part of any coalition government soon , that is spin by both London and NE Ulster. They need a bogey man and let's face it, Gerry Adams really fills that role.

The biggest story here , from an Irish perspective, is the damage that's being done to Irish/UK relations.

I never thought I would say that an article from The Mirror is a good but that one is nice.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/7-stages-brexit-denial-finally-11660763.amp

I also notice that the end situation would be, according to them, that people willactually vote to STAY in the EU.
Hence the fact so many Brexiters are so angry. Because they know they’ve actually lost...

In Geneva? This link says the award would be awarded in Barcelona. on 24 November, I can find info on 26.11.17 about the Japanese winners but not Noam Chomsky getting his prize.

Middle of Catalexit, so, publicity machines may be struggling to get attention.

Once the UK Brexits, it will by definition be a "third country" wrt the EU

The EU cannot, under WTO rules, give special terms to a neighbour who is not in the regional trade bloc

Even with an FTA - every other country with an FTA will want the same cake concessions wrt customs, frictionless borders etc that the UK govt is still trying to get.

e.g. Canada would love not to have a hard border, love not having to keep a strict division between food chains producing under US rules and those under EU rules.
Checks either have to be done under EU within the county of origin throughout the food chain - which is what happens for countries within the Single Market - or they happen at the border, or on the journey

wrt those countries without a full FTA: the EU will be under great pressure to give any UK cake terms to every RoW country with a large or medium sized economy
Every country except (Mauritius) who trades with the EU has agreements in additional to WTO terms

Global powers lobby to stop special Brexit deal for UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk

I saw Starmer and DD on Marr. I thought Starmer was answering well, especially in the manner of questioning that he wants to ignore the will of the people. All up for negotiation without red lines. Which is largely what brexiteers claim but with red lines. I liked his answer especially on pulling quotes from people that were made before the party agreed to a not really saying much strategy. He was very forceful on the need for alignment full stop if you want to trade - he said no one voted for us not to be able to trade with the EU though that may have been one of the invisible ink questions.

Wrt to DD, it's easy to give an answer when you're not basing things on reality and/or ignoring facts.

But as we all know know, bombast and feels are far greater than facts and practicality.

Regulatory alignment is a necessary but NOT* sufficient condition to do away with border checks*

All countries within the Single Market are aligned, but there are extensive checks inside each country, hence frictionless borders OK.
BUT
No IT system currently can look inside each lorry and car, to check to the same extent & thoroughness as manual inspections
Not with the huge volume of trade between the UK and the E27

Example of disaster for RoI:
England imports Trumps hormone-ridden beef
It gets sent to NI for processing, then is labelled Irish beef (which is how NI beef exports have been labelled since the BSE crisis) and is exported to the EU via the RoI

Irish beef is then found to be hormone-ridden and Irish beef is banned - even if the EU doesn't officially ban it, consumers will
No "British-labelled" beef here in Germany that I've seen - no German I know would buy "British beef", even decades after the BSE crisis

Even before the referendum, the Uk was being taken to court by the EU for exporting counterfeit Chinese goods

Imagine if some contaminated Chinese baby formula got into the country - remember all those hundreds of very ill and even a few dead babies in China from contaminated formula a few years ago

The EU already don't trust the UK wrt monitoring, even while still part of the Single Market