Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

[RedToothBrush]

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

I don't know how good this blog is, but it is all about oranges and Brexit. Who knew what a hot potato oranges were? But it will be centred on oranges. And this bit below about how tariff free or low tariff oranges might threaten the UK's apple growers

None of the above: the UK would have its own tariffs under the WTO, except for any bilateral (or small-group) free trade agreements with non-EU members. Pressure on the UK’s orange tariffs would come both within the WTO and through free trade talks. Importantly, Spain and other EU producers might also negotiate for a lower UK tariff on oranges. There seems to be no reason why the UK would object (unless its apple growers felt threatened by orange imports).

Never mind bendy bananas or even imported sugar which does compete with UK sugar beet producers. Brexiteers have moved onto oranges. Let them eat oranges!

tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/oranges-litmus-test/

Belated place marking

Bernard Jenkins is unbelievable. He is still going on like in the ref with porkies and as usual the BBC let it all stand out there uncorrected.

This is the standard MO of Brexiteers and those who cheer them on, followed by accusations of punishment/bullying/sneering/elitism if anybody actually pulls them up on it and points out the lies or asks for real evidence.

I know I'm biased, but dear god, surely some Leave voters find this type of performance as cringe-worthy as I do?

Just brought to mind when were at dinner at the house of some Spanish friends. To accompany dessert, they had a basket of oranges which they had brought back from their own orange trees in Spain. I was thinking 'I have apples, plums and cherries in my garden with some blackberry bushes I have let grow'. But I couldn't compete with the exoticism of a basket of my own oranges.

Better than when I was growing up. Gooseberries and Rhubarb 'cos it is full of iron'. You haven't lived until you have grown up with your palate being accustomed to a bowl of sour rhubarb and custard. Or weeks spent 'top and tailing' gooseberries, having picked them from thorny bushes.

whether its a good deal or not.

The confusion arises from the idea that there is a "deal". There isn't. The UK govt has just made commitments/ concessions on the three key opening points.

As I understand it, the winner in round 1 was Ireland. Whatever form Brexit takes, the border must remain as it is now. There is no agreement on how that will happen, just an agreement that it must happen. None of the underlying issues have been solved, though I think we can see now how they might be (i.e. by remaining in the SM and CU but pretending to the hard-of-thinking that we have left).

I guess the Mail versus Leave.EU reaction is proof that the latter is playing to a slightly less hard-of-thinking audience.

David Allen Green‏ @davidallengreen
No fan of referendums, in principle, but a government could now have a referendum in Spring with three choices:

- Leave, with an exit deal in accordance with "Sufficient Progress" agreed UK-EU paper

- Leave, without any exit deal

- Remain (ie revoke A50)

Head meet hands

Well, Bernard Jenkins said there was already a deal set up by the WTO, in the event of a no deal or bad deal Brexit. He lists among his interests "Economic policy, trade, European Union".

I would find it shocking if he was lying. Or economical with the truth. Or wilfully 'mis' speaking. If it was a matter that he didn't understand it, he wouldn't pretend he knew it was a deal. Man of that standing and position. He wouldn't do a Penny Mordaunt and brazenly lie on TV. Mendacity recorded for all to see.

Misty, Ireland is most certainly not a winner in all of this. They have hopefully lessened the fallout in future negotiations, is all. Of course, UK could just walk away.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42291191
Mr Gove, one of the cabinet's leading Brexiteers, said the primary agreement between the two sides had "set the scene for phase two" negotiations - where issues such as trade will be discussed.

But he said that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" at the end of the process.

After a two-year transition period, the UK would be able to pass laws with "full freedom to diverge from EU law on the single market and customs union," he added.

And the British people would "be in control" to make the government change direction if they were unhappy, he said.

"By the time of the next election, EU law and any new treaty with the EU will cease to have primacy or direct effect in UK law," said Mr Gove.

"If the British people dislike the arrangement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge."

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Gove is stating reality here - and with no reference to the GFA. Either he is reassuring hardline Leavers, or he is threatening soft Brexiteers. In any case, nothing is settled, and in fact, it is possible that all elections from now on will be fought on the issue of the relationship with the EU.

This is why the GFA amendment that never got voted on was so important. The only thing that can save NI from having the proverbial hard Brexit axe hanging over its head ad infinitum is a border poll in favour of reunification.

Dan Bloom‏ @danbloom1
A stupendous anecdote in Tim Shipman's book. David Davis got Michel Barnier mixed up with the Finnish Foreign Minister, so he called him up to talk about fish in Finland leaving him totally baffled:

There was a final act in the comedy of errors. David Davis did a ring-round of his EU counterparts but made an embarrassing mistake. 'When we triggered Article 50 he rand people from every country and was told the next person he was going to speak to was Michel Barnier,' a source said, 'but he had the wrong briefing note and he thought it was the Finnish foreign minister. So for the first few minutes of the conversation he was on the phone to Michel Barnier talking about fishing and Finland. Barnier couldn't ubderstand why he was talking to him about fish in Finland.' Official who had begun to doubt Davis's ability to deliver Brexit dined out on the story.

Somerville Fri 08-Dec-17 22:36:25
I interpreted Gove the Gobshite's piece in the Torygraph as him suggesting a future government should renege on assurances to Ireland and divorce bill and EU residents' rights

Yes, I was indeed too late, but I agree with this^^.

Ireland is not a winner. Nothing has been settled.

all elections from now on will be fought on the issue of the relationship with the EU.
Orwell either wrote this or would write it.

DD's fish.

In honour of red's OP and today is Lennon's jahrzeit
@NYCParks
Remembering #JohnLennon at Strawberry Fields in Central Park.
twitter.com/NYCParks/status/939207763447627776
At 3.21 nice rendition of 'merry christmas war is over'.

Timothy Jones
@TimJonesStaffs
Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom are now saying that the UK could make a deal and then renege on it. What effect do they think that will have on countries considering a deal with the UK? Don’t they understand how to make deals? #BrexitShambles

If you were Gove or Loathesomes constituents, yiud need you'd head wobbled to vote for them after that admission. Says everything about them as politicians

Rather like Trump reneging on TTIP & Paris agreement, actually. Also threatening to renege on nuclear-development deal with Iran... and threats against Cuba, too. Not making anyone else want to do deals with USA.

Leadsome & Gove are both in super safe conservative seats, sigh.

As this sinks in, I predict the Fine Gael government will fall.

No offence to non London remainers, but put Sadiq Khan and Artist Taxi Driver at the front of a remain movement, and I think we could be good for a few more % points

Absolutely no offence taken: I would like nothing more than to find someone credible coming out as a figurehead for Remain. The anti-Farage if you like. Unfortunately many politicians (Mystic Clegg and most especially Tony Blair) divide more people than they unite, and that stops the movement getting traction.

It doesn't help that the BBC coverage fails to ask searching questions of Brexiteers, allowing them to outright lie, safe in the knowledge that the subject matter seems to be too complex for the journalists interviewing them to know how to challenge the untruths, inconsistencies and general mendacity.

BBC London is BBC Remain:
"Gove and Johnson are mendacious creeps" said panellist
Who's heard that on BBC recently? It at least, has a panel of commentators on being honest about 'brexit' following interesting analysis of the 45th. at 15 minutes in. With a clearly scared BBC journalist.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09j3fl7/dateline-london-09122017

Artist Taxi Driver is a loud, funny, knowledgeable geezer. Which we need. Khan is sarf London smart. Which could be useful! arborea

I guess the Mail versus Leave.EU reaction is proof that the latter is playing to a slightly less hard-of-thinking audience.

I wondered whether it was Gove as the puppet of Murdoch falling in behind May for now, because the Tories are not ready for another election. It needs to be timed so that when the shit is due to hit the fan, its Corbyn who is in office, not them.

Leave.EU is the real opinion of the headbangers e.g. Redwood etc.

Now we find out that the EU is coming under increasing pressure internationally not to give the UK any special deals. This to me, illustrates how other nations are already lining up to look after their own interests, and the glib assurances of the hard brexiters that we will just fall back on WTO terms and that other countries can't wait to do deals, is just yet more hot air. Not that it will stop the hard brexiters brazenly continuing to lie their way out of trouble, while making sure, au Redwood, that their money is stashed elsewhere.

'Rampant Racism for Toffs' Tax Breaks' should have been on the bus.

Thought for the day...

From David Allen Green on Twitter.

Which is what I thought too but people on this thread explained we’re likely to have a Canada/Norway style deal regardless as May bumbles along with no end goal in mind, reacting to predictable developments that she won’t be prepared for, trying to appease the various factions who all have differing ideas about what should happen, whilst at the same time facing reality and having to deal with those cans that were kicked into the long grass.

Which is shit, really, but then which bit of the last two years hasn’t been?

Howabout Handy cook's tour of the Single / Internal Market. Worth clicking through to the links in the final para on the current state of play and the work still in progress.

fullfact.org/europe/what-single-market/

Interesting read and it does have the 'clacks overhead' symbol (for all disc world fans only). Goes back under the duvet

I had been cheered up by the acceptance of the bill/border/rights of citizens, but then I read about all the rest of the things still to be sorted (medicine, travel, etc etc etc) and no/little work done to prepare for anything and I went back to being depressed.

Not just the EU that won't trade with failed state:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk

Alleged 'lexiteers' should be happy as EU28 human rights and FOM are being removed equally, anyway from EU/UK and UK citizens.
eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/the-beginning-of-end-citizens-rights-in.html?m=1

Oh look, DEFRA is short staffed. Closing date today:
www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?jcode=1564069