Westministenders: Happy Xmas (War is Over) - if only

[RedToothBrush]

When is lying not lying. When you can get enough of your mates to agree it is not lying.

And so we have David Davis, who has made two statements to parliament which deliberately contradict each other and must constitute some sort of lie to parliament at some point however you cut it.

Will the Speaker risk the wrath of his party to uphold democratic values? We watch carefully.

Davis also reveals and exposes May too though. May one way or another is complicit in Davis’s lie, either through not doing her job in reading the reports or by protecting Davis when she knew the reports did not exist. This is gross misconduct in her inability to ensure her staff do their bloody jobs. All so she can keep her own job.

This is where whistleblowers in other institutions pop up.

It has also become apparent that May has not had THE conversation with the Cabinet over what shape Brexit should take. After 18months.
Why not? Is she incapable of consensus building or is she just incompetent?

And then we have the DUP seemingly not being properly being involved in the wording of the all important document.

Vote Leave’s Oliver Norgrove is perfectly right in saying that Hard Brexit is all but dead. Don’t let that make you feel happier. Hard Brexiteers know that there only option now, is No Deal and that’s what they will try and pursue.

There is no deal until everything is settled. Right now, nothing is settled, not even what the UK want out of Brexit, never mind the EU position.

May might well have blown the only opportunity for a deal too, because of her failure over NI and the DUP. Where does she go from here? The idea that she will stand up to anyone, is ludicrous given her track record.

We might all wish we could John Lennon's song was apt when it comes to this Christmas and Brexit, it seems the war for our future post Brexit, it seems it is only just starting.

Under the terms of the GFA, are we obliged to take NI on?

what do you mean? ni is part of the uk. it's not an independent state.

Yes it does, Pain. That Gordian knot has been obvious from the start, in NI - its why some hardline republicans of my acquaintance shouted loud for Remain whilst on the sly voting for Leave. And it's why the DUP were rather horrified when Leave won - as has been pointed out on here before, they supported Leave for similar reasons to Boris. And it's resulted in them being backed into the corner we've witnessed this week.

Well, I'm speaking as an Irish person in Ireland. If the people of NI voted to join Ireland, dies the principle of consent apply to us too?

If the people of NI voted to join Ireland, dies the principle of consent apply to us too?

Yes, NI could vote to join Ireland. Ireland could vote and tell them to fuck off.

Ireland gets a say, MrsDusty. I can't remember if it would be an all-Ireland referendum, or both regions voting separately.

That's why SF's focus is on Dublin now, not Stormont. Whichever way Brexit goes, it's likely to do their job for them in the north. They need to gradually work on public opinion in the republic - and in the rest of EU27 since the only way round the economic disparity would be for a UI to be propped up financially for a long time.

Yes, NI could vote to join Ireland. Ireland could vote and tell them to fuck off.

Man, Christmas is going to get awkward...

Brexit also plays into influencing RoI opinion on UI. The more hassle that trade with the north/Britain causes Irish businesses, the more traction the idea will gain. Or that's the thinking. Who knows...

I haven't seen an answer to Ireland not wanting a load of fervent Unionists in the Dáil. Aside from that, as the Irish population grows through EU immigration, the percentage of unionists will fall to where it's no longer much of an issue. That assumes 20 years or more from UI though, and I believe SF have now got a strategy for sooner than that. (Though that's from rumblings I hear, and I can't quote a source.)

In fact I have yet to meet a lib dem supporter who wanted it (and I count myself here as I voted lib dem).

I agree, and I am one myself. It took a lot to continue to vote for them in 2015. Since then it's been easier because they support the EU and and the Single Market and that for me is the key issue. Much more so than student fees, although like many I was appalled, but it was initially a Labour policy. My own DC's college days are well behind them and the grandchildren are nowhere near that yet and something could change before they get there, but leaving the EU will affect them in the immediate future.

No, mother. I don't feel very sorry for her at the moment either. She brought the DUP effectively into gov't. In fact, they seem to have more of a say that the rest of her gov't (but that could be the spin). Let her reap what she sowed.

Let her reap what she sowed.

Absolutely.

I have a little more sympathy for ordinary Leavers, (not the noisy suck it up brigade) who are going to be losers, but even then, I would say it's a bit limited. I have much more sympathy for EU citizens who have made their lives here but were denied a vote, people aged 16 & 17 who will have to live with the consequences and also denied a vote, and Ireland, who are likely to suffer collateral damage and no one bothered to consult them.

There’s a hole in my Brexit
by David Allen Green
8th December 2017

There’s a hole in my Brexit, dear Liza.

Then fix it, dear Henry.

The border is too hard, dear Liza.

Then soften it, dear Henry.

With what shall I soften it, dear Liza?

With regulatory alignment, dear Henry.

With what regulations, dear Liza?

With Internal Market and Customs Union rules, dear Henry.

Where do I get these Internal Market and Customs Union rules, dear Liza?

From the European Union, dear Henry.

And how do I get these rules, dear Liza?

From a Norway-type agreement, dear Henry.

What is a Norway-type agreement, dear Liza?

Much the same as staying in the EU, but with no say as to the rules, dear Henry.

...

...

[Wait for it.]

...

There’s a hole in my Brexit, dear Liza.

I cannot summon up one iota of sympathy for any leavers

Fuck em

They've fucked us

I imagine, like myself, many posters here have their eyes across a wide range of media sources ...

Given how shit things are and will get, there is something slightly mischievous in seeing the spit flecked postings of the Brexiteers ... certainly a lively discussion calling Theresa May "a traitor", and (still) threatening to storm the barricades.

I cannot summon up one iota of sympathy for any leavers

Personally I distinguish (or try to) between "Leavers" and "Brexiteers". Brexiteers being the less insightful of the two. But to me Leavers are people who did put the thought and effort into their vote, and had some very cogent and compelling arguments. I feel sorry for them, because they are being forced to suck up possibly the worst outcome possible (apart from no deal) which is probably further removed from what they envisaged when they voted.

However, if nothing else, the referendum has - for me - created a new life rule:

If you go into a polling booth, and notice that you are voting for the same thing as a constellation of racists, fascists, and morons, then maybe - just maybe - you should either abstain, or vote the other way.

I have some limited sympathy for Leavers. But that's contingent on them putting their back into pulling us put of this mess.

Mother - Scotland's possible independence is a completely different matter.
For one if Scotland left the UK they would be on their own - not in the EU like Ireland and wouldn't have a trade deal to fall back on. Why would the UK want to give them a trade deal?

There isn't any political reason to give Scotland a soft border unlike in Ireland where there is a GFA and the possible return of terrorist atrocities to contend with.

I look forward to tomorrow's newspapers LH

I have no sympathy for leavers except the ones who wanted from the off to go Norway style and have kept their heads above the parapet still saying this. They have had a lot of abuse for actually being sensible about things. But yes, as lh says, if you find yourself voting alongside a group of racists, fascists and morons then maybe its time to think again.

Just for lolz.

I wonder if the use of the word "amples" was deliberate ? I know it's perfectly good French, but it makes for a really cracking headline ....

www.msn.com/fr-fr/actualite/monde/brexit-les-amples-concessions-de-theresa-may/ar-BBGnZr3?li=BBoJIji

I feel lighter too Motherof4. More secure about our status here in France, hopeful that the pound might pick up a bit and a feeling that the UK is heading for a softer Brexit. It is still a stupid self-inflicted loss of status and an act of economic self-harm, but it feels like a bit of damage limitation.
It will probably still go horribly wrong, but just for the moment I feel better.

I look forward to tomorrow's newspapers LH

Oh, the news will be well managed. As someone pointed out, this can't possibly be the Brexit the Mail, Express and Telegraph all wanted. So at least one, if not all of them, will be disappointed (cry me a fucking river).

Quite a few Brexiteer loons are trying to deflect attention onto Corbyn with fuck all success at the moment. Maybe Labours strategy is paying off.

Say what you will - and my Dad agrees - there is something quintessentially British about everyone having to soldier on with a really shit deal just to keep everyone happy. Which is what Brexit will become, if it carries on this trajectory. So in that sense, we are reasserting Britains place in the world.

I wonder if the clincher for Boris was knowing that Gove would hate it even more ?

I'm not sure why Leave voters need sympathy when, as we are regularly reminded, they WON.

Just for the record. I think this is a stopgap. Christmas truce etc.

I can't see this lasting but it's probably driven the tensions underground with all the other rats.

Well I learnt something new in wangland today.

Went to a public, local authority meeting in a town hall about brexit and local business.

Was told to remove my EU badge.
Pointed out that was breaking the ECHR and illegal.
No badge removal no entry.
Referred to child on reception desk's supervisor.
Removed badge, refused to give it to them, (!) as they requested!
Gained entry.

Interesting conference.
Lovely small and medium local business owners.
Worried about:
Trade marking; customs delays; FOM; lack of workers; single market; customs union; skills shortage; no trade deal and subsequent loss of business.

Deathly silence when organiser wanted round of applause for May's agreement.

Key note speaker, Steve Baker ( who I had a few little questions for) was a no show, sent presidential broadcast in his place.

Round of applause for the EU national who had organised the event.

Chatted to EU flag person outside after. He's been man handled out of the event.

Lots of lovely small business owners chatted to us after and took EU flags. Passing cars requested them too.

Got sense small business owners wanted answers. What was gov's brexit plan?

Got sense that tory reps and strange American lady with 'post Soviet space' MA on the panel had no answers.

They have bought the 'mansion' and have no idea how to move in.

Nice tory/libdem business people are watching in polite horror as they do what they are doing.