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Brexit

Westministenders: Money, money, money

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/11/2017 21:52

The big developments are that the government have signalled they are prepared to pay more and to involve the ECJ when it comes to citizens rights on condition that we move to talk of trade. But no apparent progress on NI. Which is significant with Ireland threatening to veto.

The EU has not changed its stance at all. Since Day 1.

There is always a worrying omission and lack of commitment to retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The bonfire begins.

Talk is of Green still going in a reshuffle, possibly with Gove replacing him as Deputy PM.

Coalition talks in Germany have broken down, and the British have got excited about it, whilst the German response have largely been a slight shrug.

Its been a much quieter week, despite the budget. Thank goodness. There are lots of outstanding issues that are lurking in the background like the Green one though.

The main message coming from the budget, has not been any new policy, but the dreadful economic forecast for the next few years.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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mrsreynolds · 27/11/2017 19:06

I grew up in the 70s
Wasn't much fun at times tbh
I'm glad my dc have indoor toilets and central heating

OliviaD68 · 27/11/2017 19:11

Some levity. It's not a real transcript.

Brexit explained.

Westministenders: Money, money, money
Peregrina · 27/11/2017 19:40

How many people under 40 think in lbs and oz? Very few, I would imagine. As for decimal currency, that started to be introduced in the late sixties, so how many under 50 want to go back to Pounds shillings and pence?

I don't look back on my childhood with much affection, and I am of the baby boomer generation, very much so. Cold bedrooms, a limited range of foods, generally a restricted lifestyle. Corporal punishment was the norm in schools, and ridicule from a lot of teachers, (although some were good).

And now we apparently want to go back to that, because some wealthy men in the Tory party want it, but like John Redwood (same age as me), will make mighty sure that they don't suffer and their own money is elsewhere. Some of whom would be really happy if we were the 51st state of America. And we will throw it away because, quite legitimately, I feel, some people wanted to tell Cameron/Osborne what they could do with their austerity, but were seduced by Nigel Farage, BoJo and Gove's lies.

The good things I can think of about the fifties was that we were given more freedom to play out. Both DH and I went to newly built schools, for part of our schooling, no doubt as a result of the baby boom, and it was good to have well equipped classrooms with plenty of space.

Holliewantstobehot · 27/11/2017 19:54

Sorry I did lump baby boomers together somewhat. Its just that list looks like the biggest nostalgia trip ever. Its like wanting to live in the 9pm Sunday slot on ITV.

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:00

I wonder if they want to go back to the rationing which continued on some goods until 1954. Do they want to go back to a time when few people ran cars, let alone had two cars? Do they really want to go back to a fortnight's holiday in Blackpool or Skegness?

Holliewantstobehot · 27/11/2017 20:00

This is why Katie Hopkins is gone

www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/katie-hopkins-muslims-far-right-speech-mailonline-racism-islamophobia-david-horowitz-freedom-center-a8078356.html

The most upsetting thing is there are people who think like her in our country. I feel sorry for her kids if she is passing her views on to them. Its sad to live your life with hate.

OlennasWimple · 27/11/2017 20:04

Its like wanting to live in the 9pm Sunday slot on ITV.

Grin

I'm a child of the 80s (born in the 70s but no real memory of it). It sucked, and I'm so upset that my DC will also be growing up in a country where half the shops on the high street are closed, only the very wealthy can afford to travel abroad and schools are having to teach in make shift, temporary classrooms because there are more children than they really have capacity to manage. We have squandered the progress made in the last 40 years

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:07

But it's 50 years ago today that De Gaulle said 'Non' to the UK's entry into the Common Market.

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:09

We have squandered the progress made in the last 40 years

We are squandering the progress of 70 years or in some cases e.g. the NHS deliberately setting out to destroy it.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:11

Monger Detailed analysis of Leavers has shown that it is authoritarianism that is their most common characteristic,
Support for the death penalty was found to correlate to voting Leave significantly more than age or education level

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:19

Horrifying reports from HoC inquiry into disability benefits:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/27/inquiry-into-disability-benefits-deluged-by-tales-of-despair

"Charities reported clients being asked by assessors where they had “caught” Down’s syndrome from or how long they had suffered from spina bifida" AngryAngry

wtf has happened to Britain ?

That's not just politicians being evil and ignorant;
that's ordinary people choosing to kick the most vulnerable

Cailleach1 · 27/11/2017 20:22

At least Meghan spelling doesn't interfere with the pronunciation. Irish phonetics are completely bustardized with an English pronunciation. It is torture to the ears to hear Caitlín pronounced Kate Lynn. Caitlín is correctly pronounced Kotch Leen.

It would be akin to hearing Pierre pronounced Pier(as in Brighton) Re(as in resign).

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:39

Good job her name isn't Llinos - that would get mangled to destruction.

lalalonglegs · 27/11/2017 20:46

I will admit to struggling with Irish pronunciations when it comes to words and names I haven't come across before Blush. The Irish actor/writer Sharon Horgan had a running joke in the last series of Catastrophe (set in London where she lives in real life) - she names her baby Muireann and no one can pronounce it. IRL, Horgan called her daughter Sadhbh - I ended up going to .

Arborea · 27/11/2017 20:50

Do they want to go back to a time when few people ran cars, let alone had two cars? Do they really want to go back to a fortnight's holiday in Blackpool or Skegness?

I actually think they're quite happy with the idea of other people not being able to afford cars and foreign holidays. I suspect that many people like to have people they can feel superior to, and with the end of an Empire, and globalisation, it's getting harder to find people who are worse off enough Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:52

< guilty of Kate Lynn Blush >
Apologies to all Irish people who have winced

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:52

baby Muireann

I thought people said that this was a pretty but unusual name, and then they found out that in English it was boring, old fashioned Maureen.

woman11017 · 27/11/2017 20:55

wtf has happened to Britain
not nice is it.
The really creepy thing is the people everywhere who are 'just following orders'. bcf Sad
£1000 fines for homeless, so that's jail too.

This thread was good, applicable to brexit, Hoey, Hopkins and the rest of them, too, and those chilling views held by some that MongerTruffle posted earlier.

@JYSexton
After my thread on how Trump is only a symptom of American fascism, people have been asking exactly what it entails, what these people say and believe, and it's worse than you think. 1/
My family, for decades, has expressed not just openly racist sentiments, but an open admiration for dictators, murderers, and a taste for authoritarianism that knows little bounds. 2/
We're talking open admiration for Adolf Hitler, who, according to them and so many people I've known, had "good ideas." Some say he "took it too far," others don't. 3/
These are people who long for the days of lynch mobs, who roll their eyes when you bring up the concept of due process. The death penalty isn't strong enough for them. 4/
For most of my life I was surrounded by people who believed in white supremacy, politically, intellectually, and physicality. 5/
Some of them would hide behind the phrase "I'm not racist, but..." while others would defend the very notion of racism as reality. 6/
They were white supremacists, pure and simple, though many of them looked down on Neo-Nazis and KKK. Now? They share their memes and openly support them. 7/
What happened was that white supremacists in this country won a messaging battle. They shouldered in and won a seat at the table and respectability. 8/
People like Steve Bannon knew how to play them like instruments and how to bring them over into full-throated white supremacy by giving them cover. It's "nationalism" now. 9/
They were always right there with white supremacists, but Trump and Bannon brought them into the fold. They gave some cover, gave others the excuse. 10/
I've seen these people at Trump rallies speak openly about wanting to murder journalists and liberals, getting laughs out of how they'd want to torture them first. 11/
They, like many people I've known, dream of a breakdown of society where they can use their weapons to kill openly and reshape society "the way it ought to be." 12/
This is part of the reason why Midwesterners put up Confederate flags. It's racism, but it's also the dream of being able to rise up and remake this country into a fascist place. 13/
This was obvious too at the rallies, where they not only threatened people, but they were comfortable to spout this stuff openly, the way my family was comfortable among themselves. 14/
Trump's ascension was built on this. He didn't inspire it, he gave it cover. He made it a legitimate mainstream worldview. 15/
As I wrote in my NYT editorial, Trump became a "safe space" for his followers where they could be as racist and fascist as they wanted to be in public without repercussions. 16/
In my reporting on the campaign trail I watched them get bolder and louder and more outspoken as he gained momentum. They knew, at a Trump event, they could be open about who they were. 17/
Trump opened the floodgates on this, emboldened a section of society who had been largely kept under wraps and pushed to the margins. 18/
Suddenly, people like my family, who were racist and fascist, weren't racist and fascist anymore, which is what they had always believed anyway. They just saw it "the way it is." 19/
Republicans had given them support for years, but only as a political ploy. Fox News had given them a reality for their own profits. But Trump believed it, lived it, and he energized it like nobody before. 20/
Now, we're having to see this for what it is. An existential threat, but an existential threat that's ALWAYS been there. It's just been hidden mostly. 21/
I think people wanted to believe that America was better than that, that they didn't really live in a country where they were surrounded by fascists. But they were, they always were. 22/
That NYT article about the Neo-Nazi was problematic, but in truth, you would be absolutely shocked by how many people you interact with daily who are sympathetic to fascist and Nazi ideologies. 23/
If you come from a family of them, if you lived in a town of them, you've seen this, heard this, but probably never thought they'd come out openly. 24/
Unfortunately, they've always had power, but now they're gaining more and they're more open about this fascism, which means that white supremacists are in turn gaining power. 25/
It was a thin wall between these people and these white supremacists. That wall has been demolished. 26/
To get past this, we're going to have to treat fascism like a disease and quarantine it. Take away its seat at the table. And we're going to have to get back to making education a priority. 27/
Rising college costs and student debt have meant that people like my family are not only less likely to get educated, but that they look at education with a sour grapes mentality. 28/
They thumb their nose at education because they can't afford it. Their ignorance becomes a characteristic they have to own and grow proud of. 29/
If we can prioritize education again, and stigmatize fascism/Trumpism, we might be able to make it past this situation. But if we don't, we could be staring down a really horrific hole. 30/30

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 20:55

OK the Redwoods and Goves of the world are happy with Blackpool and Skeg, for other people, but do all those people in the North East want that too? Or would they still prefer Spain, or Turkey?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/11/2017 20:58

They might not enjoy the 1920s and 1930s - my dad grew up then, in the NE
He and his umpteen siblings were hungry, literally barefoot and with one set of clothes
Each left school on their 14th birthday, then hunted for employment at a few bob per week.
No NHS, starvation level benefits
Babies did starve to death because their mothers were too malnourished to bf (and too poor for substitutes like Carnation Milk)

borntobequiet · 27/11/2017 20:59

I have posted before on MN about how I reduced a Y8 class to tears by asking them to do "Scrooge's Christmas Sums" in £ s d, ounces and pounds and so on, as a Christmas "fun lesson". I still feel a bit mean and I daresay some of them remain traumatised by the experience.
The idea of bringing back Imperial measures is bonkers on so many levels. And I speak as someone with a real affection for outdated weights and measures (well I had to learn the bloody things when I was six).

Peregrina · 27/11/2017 21:00

And we're going to have to get back to making education a priority. 27/

Sadly, I don't think that will work. The Germans in the 1920s and 30s were educated and cultured and yet succumbed to fascism.

I think we have to lessen the inequalities in society but I see little chance of that happening.

RagingFemininist · 27/11/2017 21:07

that's ordinary people choosing to kick the most vulnerable
I’ve had discussion where people were going on. and on about how people were claiming disability benefits were all scroungers who were just avoiding to go to work. Even after I pointed out that 80% of appeals are granted, which means that 80% of people who appeal have genuine reasons to get disability benefits, those people were still going on about how all of the claimants are just work avoiders.

These were the same people who were going on and on about how they would consider going to work to be the most important thing ever and would just ‘be strong’ and cope. When I pointed out that, actually that attitude was more likely to get them even more ill, I was told that they should have known and just got a part time job then because it still paid more than disability benefits.

In effect, those poor people who happen to be ill are seen as

  • benefit cheats just because they dare claiming
  • and people who have just looked for it by deciding to carry on working when they shouldn’t have OR by deciding to not work as they should have (as working would have been detrimental to their health) Confused

Yes it does look more and more as if people are looking for someone ‘below them’ to be able to kick them whilst they are in the floor :(

Cailleach1 · 27/11/2017 21:17

No, Maureen is not English version of Muireann. Máirín is a diminutive of Máire/Mary. Maureen the english phonetics spelling.

Muireann is an older Irish name. Pronounced Mwir in.

This site says it is the name of the mother of Fionn mac Cumhail. He of the Giant's Causeway myth.

nameberry.com/babyname/Muireann

BigChoc, we struggles with words with phonetics we are not familiar with. The reason it gets on my wick is that it is everywhere and this pronunciation has been adopted into the English speaking world. Esp. the US.

Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh at 24:32

Holliewantstobehot · 27/11/2017 21:18

Just looked at the comments under that Katie Hopkins article on yahoo. 15 comments so far. 14 in support of Katie, 1 against.Sad