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Brexit

Westministenders: Money, money, money

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/11/2017 21:52

The big developments are that the government have signalled they are prepared to pay more and to involve the ECJ when it comes to citizens rights on condition that we move to talk of trade. But no apparent progress on NI. Which is significant with Ireland threatening to veto.

The EU has not changed its stance at all. Since Day 1.

There is always a worrying omission and lack of commitment to retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The bonfire begins.

Talk is of Green still going in a reshuffle, possibly with Gove replacing him as Deputy PM.

Coalition talks in Germany have broken down, and the British have got excited about it, whilst the German response have largely been a slight shrug.

Its been a much quieter week, despite the budget. Thank goodness. There are lots of outstanding issues that are lurking in the background like the Green one though.

The main message coming from the budget, has not been any new policy, but the dreadful economic forecast for the next few years.

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frumpety · 23/11/2017 07:29

Sorry to hark back to housing , 300,000 is quite a lot if that is the number to be built every year , if these are in fact additional to the numbers already included in local plans ? I don't have the exact figures to hand but I believe in our local area the number is already 3,000 a year for the next 10 plus years , so the size of a small town . Will there be money to fund additional school places , GP services , hospital beds , social care , infrastructure, for all the inhabitants of these new homes ?

HesterThrale · 23/11/2017 07:37

Exactly frumpety.
A huge estate was built near my doctor's surgery recently and now you must wait 7 weeks for an appointment! It used to be 3 days.
(Another factor is that all the GPs seem to have gone part-time as it's so stressful. And they can't seem to recruit any more.)

Seven weeks! It actually makes me feel very anxious.

frumpety · 23/11/2017 07:43

Should have said above that when I say local area , I mean local borough council area , not county council .

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 07:54

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
Asked on #r4today how much it would cost to service Government debt under a Labour government, John McDonnell says that's "a trite form of journalism - that's why we have ipads and advisers". A fair question, if you ask me.

We need to teach maths better at GCSE and lower so MPs can manage with out iPads and advisors

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 23/11/2017 07:54

Morning - I wonder what fresh Brexshit this thread will bring.

Thank you, Red and everyone else.

pointythings · 23/11/2017 08:05

On the German situation - this is really not a big deal. UK politicians and media just don't get it. The Netherlands were without a government for 7 months and life just went on.

HashiAsLarry · 23/11/2017 08:06

frumpety we've had similar around here, massive building projects but no extra infrastructure to support it. Add in a couple of GP closures and you can imagine the waits now. Though its all the fault of those pesky forriners apparently (we're over 70% white british round here, a figure that hasn't fallen with an increase in people).

OliviaD68 · 23/11/2017 08:10

Tweet from Seb Dance

May utterly wrong to suggest because Common Travel Area predates EU there’ll be no border. CTA created when customs/ immigration policy on either side was same. Both 🇬🇧 and 🇮🇪 then joined 🇪🇺. UK Govt now wants different customs policy - this means a hard border #PMQs

Do we agree with that? I completely agree wrt to trade in goods. Not sure I agree wrt movement of people. Ironic that Brexit is being pursued to enhance free trade and reduce immigration and could lead to less trade and same immigration policy ....

Peregrina · 23/11/2017 08:15

Belgium was without a Government for more than a year a couple of years back, I recall. Friends there said that since so much is done at the local level it didn't really make all that much difference!

Peregrina · 23/11/2017 08:30

They really don't get the NI/RoI border, do they? Worst of all, they apparently don't even want to find out. Bring back John Major - he was prepared to grasp the nettle. He was also prepared to face down his Eurosceptics, although May doesn't now have the same options.

I could not but help think of the build up to Nazi Germany and how people seemed to sleep walk into it, and we appear to be sleep walking into Brexit. More and more firms are saying that it's likely to be a disaster but the answer from the Govt ranges from 'so what' to 'you're being negative'. Now we have seen the EMA and EBA make concrete plans to depart, lost the representation of a judge at the International Court for the first time in 71 years( which shows our declining international influence), and still appeasing the extreme right wing of the Tory Party, or pretending that the 'Special relationship' with the US are the most important things, and still dressed up as 'the will of the people'.

Theworldisfullofidiots · 23/11/2017 08:52

Not a brexit question directly but I need some help and you lot seem clever. I'm a chair of governors of a small badly funded primary and I'm aiming to form some arguments about funding and it looks like funding may get worse under brexit. Would anyone be prepared to look at some of my arguments and critique them. I need them pulled apart before taking them further. Thanks.

mrsquagmire · 23/11/2017 08:53

Thanks Red, and thanks lonelyplanetmum for the Spiegel link about anti-Brexit. I hadn’t heard of Clegg’s “How to Stop Brexit.” I looked for it on Amazon and spotted another book “Brexit No Exit” by Ian McShane, as well as Ian Dunt, Robert Peston, etc. #stopbrexit is another place opposition is going on. There needs to be some way to pull all this opposition together since HM's official Opposition isn't doing it.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2017 08:58

Sorry to hark back to housing , 300,000 is quite a lot if that is the number to be built every year

Hark ! away Grin

  1. I'll believe it when I see it.
  2. Bear in mind the enormous amount of land locked up by property developers, so they can game the market, and "release" just the right number of houses to keep the prices (artificially) high. This isn't some sort of tinfoil-hat conspiraloon view. It's what the agents themselves have said when we have visited (shitty) new builds locally. The lack of new houses is a fucking selling point.

As with so many other things in la-la land, it's all about plate-spinning and circle-squaring. The government has to pretend to the public that it's "doing something" about the housing crisis, whilst at the same time demonstrating to the big property developers that that can carry on creaming it in.

Here's an interesting take on the matter ...

While reporting on the recent court case where controversial landlord Fergus Wilson defended (but lost) his right to refuse to let to Indians and Pakistanis, I learned something about how he’s now making money. He is now far from being Britain’s biggest buy-to-let landlord. He’s down to 350 homes, from a peak of 1,000. And what’s he doing with the cash made from sales? Buying agricultural land close to Kent’s biggest towns. One plot he bought for £45,000 is now worth, he boasted, £3m with development permission. And therein lies the reason why we have a housing crisis.

As long ago as 1909, Winston Churchill, then promoting Lloyd George’s “people’s budget” and its controversial measures to tax land, told an audience in Edinburgh that the landowner “sits still and does nothing” while reaping vast gains from land improvements by the municipality, such as roads, railways, power from generators and water from reservoirs far away. “Every one of those improvements is effected by the labour and the cost of other people … To not one of those improvements does the land monopolist contribute, and yet by every one of them the value of his land is sensibly enhanced … he contributes nothing even to the process from which his own enrichment is derived.”

Landowners pocketed £9bn in profit from land they sold for new housing in 2014-15 When Britain’s post-war housebuilding boom began, it was based on cheap land. As a timely new book, The Land Question by Daniel Bentley of thinktank Civitas, sets out, the 1947 Town and Country Planning Act under Clement Attlee’s government allowed local authorities to acquire land for development at “existing use value”. There was no premium because it was earmarked for development. The New Towns Act 1946 was similar, giving public corporation powers to compulsorily purchase land at current-use value. The unserviced land cost component for homes in Harlow and Milton Keynes was just 1% of housing costs at the time. Today, the price of land can easily be half the cost of buying a home: £439,999 is the cost of land with planning permission for one terraced home in a less salubrious part of London such as Peckham.

What happened? Landowners rebelled and Harold Macmillan’s Conservative government introduced the 1961 Land Compensation Act. Henceforth, landowners were to be paid the value of the land, including any “hope value”, when developed. Today a hectare of land is worth 100 times more when used for housing rather than farming. Yet when a bureaucratic pen grants permission, all the value goes to the landowner, not the public. Bentley says landowners pocketed £9bn in profit from land they sold for new housing in 2014-15. For each new home built that year, £60,000 went as profit to the landowner. Major infrastructure projects such as Crossrail 2 and the Bakerloo tube line extension are estimated to cost the public purse £36bn. Landowners, meanwhile, will pocket £87bn from increased land values nearby.

In the Netherlands, the only sizeable country in Europe more densely populated than England, the Expropriation Act allows local authorities to buy land at current-use value. They prepare it for development, use part for social housing and sell the rest for commercial use, often at a large profit.

Think of it. Councils take all the financial uplift from planning permission, using potentially huge profits from land sales to build social housing almost at no cost to the public purse. Developers focus on making profits from building high-quality homes, not from hoarding plots. Land speculation is killed off almost overnight.

Instead, the chancellor will tell us in this week’s budget that the solution is billions more for help to buy. All that does is raise property prices and landowner profits. If only Philip Hammond could be more like Churchill.

Peregrina · 23/11/2017 09:06

The political will isn't there to follow the Guardian's solution. Hasn't Phillip Hammond for one made a lot of money from land and property?. Another way would be to introduce legislation to compel those landowners to pay for the infrastructure themselves, but that's not going to happen either.

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2017 09:16

The political will isn't there to follow the Guardian's solution

Of course not. Who pays the piper ?

I wonder how much of that land being held is actually suitable for housing ?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/11/2017 10:04

thanks as always Red

prettybird · 23/11/2017 10:07

My telecoms lawyer friend had a full day of Brexit meetings down in London yesterday. Although it's keeping him in a job, his comment was, "At least it's confirming to me that none of our elected representatives have any cunning ideas of how to solve the issues we're highlighting to them."

Damn those pesky experts who only find problems Shock Where's Baldrick when we need him? Wink

usuallydormant · 23/11/2017 10:43

Hmm, even this thread title ignores the Irish question.... Wink

The view from abroad, as seen from the Irish perspective
www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/1123/922191-brexit-embassies/ RTE is the Irish equivalent of the BBC.

The Irish foreign minister, Simon Coveney, has been doing the rounds with the European press. The Irish have been accused of being obsessed with history - I've a feeling that a Fine Gael Corkman going off to negotiate with the British about a border will be remembering his history. This guy is worth keeping an eye on: he just missed on the leadership contest to Leo, is young, extremely ambitious and has a lot riding on ensuring a successful outcome for Rol.

www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/11/22/avec-le-brexit-le-retour-des-postes-frontieres-poserait-un-defi-au-processus-de-paix-en-irlande_5218869_3214.html

HashiAsLarry · 23/11/2017 10:51

The Irish are obsessed with history? Where were they during Agincourt and crecy eh? 😉

usuallydormant · 23/11/2017 10:54

Cheering for the French most probably ;)

LurkingHusband · 23/11/2017 11:00

The Irish are obsessed with history? Where were they during Agincourt and Crecy eh?

(whoosh Grin)

Fighting on the English side ?

Is there an Irish equivalent of the Auld alliance ? (Not quite so "auld" from my experiences in Paris ...)

prettybird · 23/11/2017 11:01

Usuallydormat - I have a suspicion that this thread will be full in time for for the Irish issue to in the next headline as it will be the specific stumbling block at the December meeting after which the UK Gov will wail " 'sno faaaiiirrr " and stamp it's feet. The UK Gov and the rabid Brexiteers seem to think that if they stick their fingers in the ears long enough singing Lalala "imaginative solutions", then the EU will roll over like kittens wanting their tummies tickled and the border will miraculously disappear.

OliviaD68 · 23/11/2017 11:12

On NI from a Leave leaflet ...

Westministenders: Money, money, money
usuallydormant · 23/11/2017 11:17

Yes, the Irish have spent centuries waiting for the French, or Spanish to rescue them from the English. Not sure the French and Spanish really knew through...

There's a whole poetic tradition in the 18/19th C of a brave young soul going for a snooze and the spirit of Ireland comes to him in a dream (Aisling) to tell him not to worry, the Spaniards/French are on their way.

1798 is known as the Year of the French when the Irish revolutionaries managed to get the French to sail a few ships over but it all came to nothing and they were routed.

So perhaps Barnier is just another in a long line of French heroes who are hoped to rescue us Grin

...off to google Crecy...

HashiAsLarry · 23/11/2017 11:18

For the avoidance of doubt that was a pop at brexiteers.

Olivia if it's a vote leave leaflet you can rest assured it's probably bull.

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