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Brexit

EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

243 replies

GirlsBlouse17 · 17/11/2017 18:36

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

OP posts:
Shutupanddance1 · 23/11/2017 16:31

I'm from Donegal - you know, that bit of 'the north of Ireland' stuck on to the side of Northern Ireland.

We are totally fucked if they impose a hard border. Fucked royishly and absolutely nobody nobody asked any of the border counties of Ireland if we were willing to take a hard border on.

It's darn right selfish. It's putting the livelihood of thousands of families across Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland in doubt.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 16:33

So, if someone brought all the people from Calais and they set up in Blacklion (which will forever be in my mind as the location of Neven Maguire's restaurant), nobody in the UK will want to bring back a border. Not even when Belcoo is on the news all the time. Not the Daily Mail or DUP? You know the rule about someone who is in the country illegally being sent back to the the EU country they came from. That won't apply after Brexit, will it?

No border in Ireland = no border in Calais.

lalalonglegs · 23/11/2017 16:48

Brexit has been described as an act of economic aggression against the island of Ireland more than once and it's hard to disagree. It's colossally selfish, Shutup.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 17:03

Shutup, I was thinking about poor old Donegal today. Whatever chance of Waterford extending to create capacity for those deep ports for roro ships, Donegal is really isolated if cross border cooperation and initiatives are damaged. The diminishing of the cross border health care arrangements in particular would be dreadful.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/The_hardest_border

GladAllOver · 23/11/2017 20:34

Brexit has been described as an act of economic aggression against the island of Ireland more than once and it's hard to disagree.

Very true.
It has also been called an act of economic suicide by the UK, and its hard to disagree with that either.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 21:25

Now we're all getting to know and love John Taylor aka "Lord John Kilclooney", here is a little nugget of his reference to the Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar as 'the Indian'.

The Northern Ireland peer said he used the term as shorthand for Mr Varadkar as he "couldn't spell his name".

His tweet came in reply to the the Sunday Business Post political correspondent Hugh O'Connell who was quoting Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Coveney as saying he would like to see a united Ireland "in his political lifetime".

"Simon Coveney is stirring things up . Very dangerous non statesman like role! Clearly hoping to undermine the Indian," Lord Kilclooney tweeted.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/lord-kilclooney-refers-to-leo-varadkar-as-the-indian-but-only-because-i-couldnt-spell-his-name-36348187.html

L Kuenssberg saying these comments about British gov't are 'harsh'. Seriously.

twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/933776618425847810

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 21:28

this guy's twitter is good for knowing what is going from a non-British perspective. has more balance.

twitter.com/Bentonra?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

woman11017 · 23/11/2017 21:49

Cailleach1 thanks for that link. I'm lurking and learning here. Flowers Shutupanddance1
Brexit has been described as an act of economic aggression against the island of Ireland more than once and it's hard to disagree.
The iconography and politics of brexit seem to owe so much to extremists like this specimen, John Taylor. DUP leave funding fiddle points that way too.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 22:18

Taylor reminds me of an anecdote Jon Ronson told of his time following Ian Paisley in Africa. Paisley used to refer to him as 'the Jew'.

woman11017 · 23/11/2017 22:45

My circucumcised friend They are characters aren't they?

woman11017 · 23/11/2017 22:50

circumcised still Paisley became a chuckle brother so.........hoping we get more of those.

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 07:24

L Kuenssberg saying these comments about British gov't are 'harsh'. Seriously.

Goodness me, the benighted and blatantly racist (imperialist, still Confused) comments on that thread! One fool says post-Brexit we;'ll treat the Irish as "no more than Europeans" - the arrogance is breathtaking.

I know I shouldn't be surprised any more, but ...

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 08:08

Up early, woke up worrying (my default status nowadays), so for a bit of amusement, here's a quick update on my DW's ongoing Permanent Residence application (apologies in advance for the length, but then Kafka's The Trial is quite long, too):

Previous readers will recall that one application was rejected, so had to apply again. This second one has now been accepted, BUT the HO just can't resist sticking further spanners in the works: Despite being here since 1978 and sending confirmation from HMRC that she's been paying NIC every year since then, they've slapped on a seemingly arbitrary date of entry to the UK of 6 April 2011. This despite also sending P60s from 2005 - 2011 (last date prior to retirement).

This concerned us from the viewpoint of accrued pension rights, so we tried to phone for an explanation, but was told we have to write. Not email, only snail-mail allowed. So we wrote and have now received an email (!) back saying that the HMRC document doesn't constitute proof that she's been "exercising free movement Treaty rights" in the UK.

They then listed the P60s we sent, thus confirming she's been here (and exercising her free movement rights) since at least 2005, not 2011.

When you send in an application, you have to go to your (fairly) local European Passport Exchange office to get a biometric (if that's the word) copy of your passport (a bargain at £36). This we did, but now the HO email says that as her passport is dated 2011 (when she last renewed it), we have failed to provide evidence that she held German nationality prior to the issue date of this passport (January 2011) and therefore: "As a result, this department is unable to give you an earlier entitlement date as you have not proved you can rely on the EEA Regulations as an EEA national."

The confused and contradictory reasoning is astonishing. They list the P60s (the gold standard of evidence, apparaently) from 2005 and then say they can only give a date of entry to the UK of 2016. Also, there is no mention on the form or in the guidance notes that we need to send in old passports to prove she was German prior to the issue of the latest one.

They finish off by saying that, anyway, "case judgement Lassal (C -162/09) states that a person could not get a document certifying permanent residence until after 30 April 2006", as the relevant regulations only came into force on that date. Even that date would have been preferable and we're still no wiser as to why the arbitrary 2011 date has been chosen.

The notice also states that if she leaves the UK for 2 consecutive years she'll forfeit her PR rights. Quite apart from the fact that this is not yet true, what would happen if she left for 22 months and then came back. Does she just hang around for a couple of weeks and is then able to leave again? Or does she have to wait for a further 5 years' qualifying period? Maybe I should ask Lord Ashcroft or Philip Green.

What a shambles. And there are over 3 million EU citizens to deal with! How are they going to handle that level of applications with this degree of illogical incomoetence? And anyway, once Brexit goes through the PR card becomes irrelevant and we'll have to reapply for "Settled Status". Welcome to the UK!

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 08:12

edit: "a date of entry to the UK of 2011", not 2016. Even I'm getting confused Grin

Mistigri · 24/11/2017 08:19

@Hasenstein you might consider getting in touch with Dr Mike Ward on twitter (@schroedinger99) who has been campaigning on this issue - his DW also an EU citizen has encountered similar nonsense.

The HO are a disgrace.

woman11017 · 24/11/2017 08:37

The HO are a disgrace. yes, and Flowers Hasenstein At least The Trial is funny. This is most certainly not.

Peregrina · 24/11/2017 09:03

I still think you need to go to the press over this Hasenstein - a bit of bad publicity seems to work wonders and they suddenly find that they misinterpreted their rules.

What I suspect has happened, being charitable, is that the HO cut their staffing back too far and have now had to scramble to recruit more, who simply aren't sufficiently trained or experienced. Or they are just a bunch of racist, little Englanders, or maybe a bit of both.

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 09:33

Peregrina

I'm going to give them another chance to get it right and have now again written to ask them to explain the obvious logical inconsistencies in their response. I have heard that the department in Liverpool handling these applications was stripped of experienced staff in order to work on Brexit-related issues and new people have been recruited to deal with PR applications. This may, as you say, explain their apparent lack of experience and understanding.

I'm afraid I don't trust the HO an inch, so I'd really like to get this definitively sorted before I think about going to the press. Whilst I think that the HO's incompetence should be disclosed to the wider public, I do rather selfishly want to make sure that my wife's status is dealt with first.

GladAllOver · 24/11/2017 09:40

You should choose any press contact carefully.
Certain right-wing papers might congratulate the HO on being strict on those beastly immigrants.
Good luck on getting this disgraceful business sorted!

RhuBarbarella · 24/11/2017 11:36

Not trying to be awkward here Hasenstein, but why go through ask this when brexit makes this procedure irrelevant when they change it all? I'm European btw, but I am not doing any kind of paperwork until I really need to. Your reasons may be private of course, in that case feel free to ignore me.

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 12:56

RhuBarbarella

My wife is looking to obtain dual nationality, so getting the PR card is the first step along that route. Next is spoken English test, then Life in the Uk test. We're already saving up to be able to afford them!

If we weren't doing this, like you we wouldn't have done anything, as they've said that PR will be replaced by "settled status" and we'll have to reapply. In fact, the HO is apparently already acting as though settled status has happened, hence them telling my dw that she can't leave the country for more than 2 years, despite the fact that this is not the case while we're still in the EU.

Hasenstein · 24/11/2017 13:45

I've just seen that I've posted all the above in the wrong thread and don't know how to move to a different topic. Profuse apologies for derailing the far more important discussion on the Irish border. Blush

RhuBarbarella · 24/11/2017 15:20

(Thanks Hasenstein. What a palaver! My country doesn't allow for dual citizenship, otherwise I might have been in the same boat.
Maybe MNHQ can move these messages to the 'right' thread? )

inisfree · 25/11/2017 09:52

Woman I agree with every word you have said in your post at 23/11 15.39.

IsaSchmisa · 25/11/2017 12:14

Hasenstein has your partner got an immigration lawyer? I am one and we see stuff like that a lot.

I'd advise anyone who thinks they might want to stay in the UK post March 2019 to get the PR document, just because you don't know what will happen or whether it might be useful to you. I know what's been said about none of it being valid after the UK leaves, but that's all totally speculative at this point, and I am as sure as I can be that there'd be legal challenges to that. I just think if there are going to be any transitional provisions, you're putting yourself in the best position possible if you have something confirming you were here under EU law before the UK leaves (if we do).

Back to the fucking shambles of an Irish border issue...