EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

[GirlsBlouse17]

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

The good thing about brexit, is that mainlanders are learning (better late than never) about the egregious DUP.

Like brexiteers, they have no mandate over the majority in britain. As usual they are overplaying their hand.

@SellaTheChemist
It sounds to me like Mrs May is caught between the DUP and deep blue sea.t

@Usherwood
DUP warns Theresa May that prospect of post-Brexit Irish Sea border is 'non-negotiable'

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/25/dup-warns-theresa-may-prospect-post-brexit-irish-sea-border/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_ApyrZ8KzMNmr …

Interesting read http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/dup-conference-ukip-arlene-foster-theresa-may-brexit-nigel-dodds-a8076256.html

In a nut shell...it's a bloody pantomime here at the minute...

Spitting image would have a field day...

I had thought that after the Good Friday agreement, Ireland had at long last got some peace. Now it seems Brexit has given the Trouble makers an opportunity to start over again.

Richard Corbett and Conor McGinn are both Labour MP's who seem to understand the issues.

No idea why Kate Hoey doesn't understand better. She is originally from Northern Ireland as is Conor McGinn.

I gather that Hoey is of the DUP persuasion, so that says it all.

Kate Hoey sits on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, and since the EU Ref they have been conducting an inquiry into all the myriad ways brexit can fuck the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

You can read the submissions here: www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/future-of-the-irish-land-border-17-19/publications/
and here (from before the election) www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/inquiry3/publications/

Despite this, Kate has not grasped the seriousness of this issue. Who knows why.

If anyone wants an intro into the ways in which the border can be an issue (for goods, regulations, workers, residents...) and why it's not just the EU being arsey then this hearing is a very accessible place to start - features Michael Dougan who's v good on EU Law parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/f3b60405-0d2f-4c93-8ba0-1edcc0f02c9a

And this is good and discusses the potential for fucking of the dairy industry www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p051pnll

And I'll leave this from this hearing from NI business:

Do not pull out of the customs union. It is the biggest fear that we have, notwithstanding that there are concerns around the handling of people movements. I do not want to diminish those, but prioritising across all the risks, the biggest risk is for us, and for the people we represent, a hard border with respect to the movement of goods. It is difficult to see how that could be managed without disruption. That would be our plea.

We are pulling out of the customs union.

The EU is not being arsey. It must protect the interests of its members which will shortly be just ROI.
Leavers want to blame someone else for a problem they created.

The government didn't think it through (this and other issues).

You can't be out of the EU without a border.

If there is no border it makes the whole motivation for controlling the border null and void.

So there is no point controlling people at Heathrow when you could fly to Dublin and take a car into Belfast and be in effect in the U.K. without having had your passport checked.

This is one of the many instances in which the government acted as if leave meant we could keep all the benefits with none of the downsides.

Free trade no borders

Borders => no free trade

Chose a side but you can't have both.

Shutupanddance I found the NI Affairs Committee evidence from the border communities particularly grim to hear

Also that of Londonderry (on the NI side of the border): 78.3% of the people in this area voted to remain

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/northern-ireland-affairs-committee/future-of-the-land-border-with-the-republic-of-ireland/oral/45521.html

Peter Geoghegan mentioned upthread is excellent on this twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan?

As is this tweet thread on how the border is now: 1. My thoughts as a Northern Irish person on how NO LEAVERS REALISED that Brexit will likely precipitate utter carnage in NI and, thusly, UK...
continues here twitter.com/shockproofbeats/status/747362070576898048?lang=en

As is this FT article which should have share thingy on it: More delusions on the Irish border

Note that many (if not all) of these issues were known (to those in power) from June last year, but the government went ahead and triggered Article 50 regardless, and still have no way of solving them beyond the famous as frictionless as possible magical thinking

It's a fucking mess, entirely of the UK's creation, and I'd agree solvable only if we stay in both the Customs Union and the Single Market, which is possible even if we leave the EU. This linked tweet thread is from an ex-negotiatior for the UK in the EU.

And there is no ultimatum from the EU

We voted to leave
We triggered article 50 without the government doing any cost-benefit analysis.

All self inflicted. Can't complain that we face to face the consequences of our actions.

You can't ask for a divorce and by the way can I still have access to tv and the dogs but you pay the mortgage.

We triggered article 50 without the government doing any cost-benefit analysis.
It's now coming to light that some reports were indeed done, but they are so dreadful that they have had to be concealed.

I thought the Leavers wanted to control our borders?

BTW if anyone feels like they should have known about the NI border issue before voting, here is what the official Vote Leave campaign had to say:

June 01, 2016
Statement by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and Gisela Stuart
...
There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Reassuring isn't it? And only possible if we work hard to recreate a Single Market and Customs Union relationship with the EU. Which no-one in government is doing.

There was a reasonably detailed Northern Ireland Affairs Select Ctee report in May 2016, i.e. before the referendum:
However, in the event of a Brexit, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would become an external border for the EU and so would principally be a matter of negotiation between the UK and EU. The scope of any post-Brexit trade deal would have an influence on the nature of the border. In the event that it did not extend to mutual tariff-free access to each others’ markets, the border might need to include customs checks. Furthermore, if any post-Brexit agreement between the UK and EU did not extend to the free movement of labour with the rest of the EU, there are fears that the border with the Republic would become a “back door” by which UK border controls could be evaded

@Anlaf

And even this is not totally right.

There was a reasonably detailed Northern Ireland Affairs Select Ctee report in May 2016, i.e. before the referendum:

However, in the event of a Brexit, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would become an external border for the EU and so would principally be a matter of negotiation between the UK and EU.

Not really. It's binary. We're in SM/CU or not.

The scope of any post-Brexit trade deal would have an influence on the nature of the border.

No. ANY trade deal requires a border. SM/CU membership does not.

In the event that it did not extend to mutual tariff-free access to each others’ markets, the border might need to include customs checks.

If it were just tariffs that would be fine. But it's not. Regulatory compliance!

Furthermore, if any post-Brexit agreement between the UK and EU did not extend to the free movement of labour with the rest of the EU, there are fears that the border with the Republic would become a “back door” by which UK border controls could be evaded

Love how Brexiters are saying it is not they who want a border but the EU.

Even under bare bones WTO, the UK MUST have border controls.

Don't know if this link will work but ......https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/935599685611515904

and I thought the Americans had poor Geographical knowledge!

Brexit: Irish border bungling by government ‘plays into the hands’ of terrorists, warns former police chief

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-irish-border-terrorists-ira-republican-loyalists-northern-ireland-government-hugh-orde-a8081576.html