EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

[GirlsBlouse17]

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

It was a bloody stupid referendum. Look at the way Ireland does referendums - for each one they have a referendum committe that produces factual information for both sides of the vote.

This was a shambles and the blame firmly lies with the government who called it.

bloody stupid referendum
Obsolete opinion poll. Stuff happens, one moves on.

"One moves on"

Well, yes, what other choice do we have? However, it means dealing with uncertainty and chaos that could have been avoided so I'll still call it that,thanks.

Not true.
And if I may say, this harms those who want a change of brexit direction. Please don't insult those who could change their minds.
But there cannot be a change of Brexit direction. We either accept the four freedoms, which means staying in the EU, or we leave the EU entirely. The EU have made this very clear.
It doesn't matter what our government policy is, or even which party is in power. We cannot pick and choose which bits of the EU we belong to.
We made the wrong decision in the referendum, and now have to live with the consequences like the Irish border.

We made the wrong decision in the referendum, and now have to live with the consequences like the Irish border
Things change.

@woman11017

Correct. And they probably will.

Excellent article on leaving the Single Market

This might be stating the obvious but I really feel many people don't get some of the issues with regards to Northern Ireland. Some have already been mentioned.

Northern Ireland citizens can choose to be British or Irish. Under the Good Friday Agreement.This right needs to be retained. Therefore a lot of people in Northern Ireland will be EU citizens living in their Birth place which is no longer in the EU.

Children in border counties have the right to go to school on either side. You could find the school run now complicated by a border crossing.

People in Northern Ireland can work either side of the border. Similarly you could find you have to go through a border check point to get to other side.

The Good Friday Agreement is complicated so eg. as a person living in NI. I can choose to be British or Irish. I can send my children to school in NI or the Republic of Ireland. If I need assistance aboard I can request support from the Irish or British consulate or both.

Farmers in border counties have land split by the border. You could have dairy cows with pasture on one side and the milking parlour on the other.

People have homes gardens where the border runs through the middle. You could end up with your washing line etc on the other side.

The Northern Ireland border is 310 miles long.

It's crossed about 30,000 times a day.

There are 200 cross border roads. As well as trains, ferries etc

Cross border trade is incredibly important to the growth and prosperity of Northern Ireland.

I hope that gives an idea of the scale of the issues.

I do wonder if a second referendum on Single Market and Customs Union might be a possibility.

Can anyone explain what the advantages of leaving these are?

I was speaking to a milk farmer recently. He said that 2/3 of our milk here in the north gets exported to the south to be turned into powdered milk and exported to the Far East. A hard brexit would be catastrophic to many in the north here and the south too. It's like saying a hard border between England and Scotland wouldn't have any repercussions!

Can anyone explain what the advantages of leaving these are?

The $64,000 question. For the wea£thy right wing men in the Tory party, an opportunity to make even more oodles of money. For other wealthy right wing men, not in the Tory party, a chance to make oodles and oodles of money.

This article by RTE journalist Tony Connelly is excellent and should be read by everyone in the UK and Ireland. If you are still confused OP this should help.
www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1117/920981-long-read-brexit/

We made the wrong decision in the referendum, and now have to live with the consequences like the Irish border

No. The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain. Now we have to live with the consequences of the border changes because of someone else's poor decision. It's easy for you to say suck it up when you don't live here.

@MynewnameisKy

Leavers think leaving the SM/CU would provide the following advantages.

• control of immigration. Freedom of movement comes with SM/CU.

• ability to have your own regulatory standards. In truth we would need to align to either US or EU standards in order to trade predominantly with one block or another.

• ability to negotiate our own trade deals ... after we have copied over 750 trade agreements in place already. Argument is that these agreements doesn’t allow us to trade enough. Somehow Germany doesn’t have a problem.

• jurisdiction of ECJ. For some matters we would be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

Why imperilling 50% of our trade and damaging swathes of our industry for these purported benefits seems weird.

200 cross border roads MN NI posters pre ref were posting about their worry about potentially having to take their kids to the dentists across new border, complete with passports and god knows what else.
Fortunately and unfortunately many are too young to remember the last time.

Southern Ireland?!!! FFS!

Amazing. Border in Ireland is one of the three stumbling blocks and further talks can be vetoed until it is properly addressed. Yet, Sunday Politics is concentrating on Germany. And giving Gisela Stuart a soapbox. Not quite so easy as normal as Alistair Campbell is savvy about the tactics used and gives it right back to them.

The border is a worry but we never had to show passports to cross it before, pre Good Friday.

Would the proposed hard border actually result in that? I'm one of the many in N Ireland who considers themselves both British and Irish, as is our right under the GFA. I would object strongly to having to show a passport to travel within Ireland, and I'd object strongly to having to show a passport to travel to the rest of the UK. In fact, I think that would piss me off even more...

That last comment relates to the suggestion that has repeatedly been made in discussions that the problem could be solved by pushing the border back so that it is between N Ireland and the 'mainland' for customs purposes.

Of course, not everybody values the GFA:

Peter Geoghegan‏
@PeterKGeoghegan
1h

Gove wrote a pamphlet in 2000 called Northern Ireland: the Price of Peace in which he compared the agreement to the appeasement of the Nazis in the 1930s and the condoning of the desires of paedophiles.

In 2000 in Times, Gove wrote against GFA that "The real cause of conflict in Northern Ireland has not been the British presence, but British policy to dilute that presence."

In 2000, Michael Gove in Spectator described human rights law in Northern Ireland as 'the new terror'. Yep human rights is same as terror.

Gove wrote: 'if IRA active service units have been appeased, it is only because we now have, in the equality agenda of the Belfast Agreement, another ticking timebomb primed to disrupt our business and social life - one which no disposal squad is yet equipped to decommission.'

Last July an architect of Good Friday told me Gove was a “fanatic” who would be “dangerous” for the Northern Irish peace process and North-South relations if he won the Conservative Party leadership election.

Michael Gove has written at length about how awful Good Friday agreement is, shown no sign that his mind has changed, and now is part of UK gov telling anyone who shows concern for GFA that they're hysterical scaremongers

In August 1998, writing for Times a week after Omagh bomb, Gove wrote an anti-agreement jeremiad that included gushing sections about Vincent McKenna (not saying Gove knew McKenna's evil then)

Haha in 1999 Jacob Rees Mogg - who also seems no friend of GFA- wrote in Times that "Ultimatums rarely succeed and seem unlikely to work in Northern Ireland". Is that same Rees Mogg who favours hardline no deal ultimatum to EU??

"An ultimatum also weakens the position of the negotiator who makes it. Once a deadline has been set, it limits everyone's room for manoeuvre. It crystallises the negotiating position, and takes away the freedom to make concessions." Jacob Rees Mogg, Times, 1999

No. The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain. Now we have to live with the consequences of the border changes because of someone else's poor decision. It's easy for you to say suck it up when you don't live here.

By we I meant the UK. I know you voted Remain, of course. And I have every sympathy for everyone on both sides of the boarder who have had this stupidity thrust upon them.
BTW did not say 'suck it up'. It is a problem that must be solved although how that can be done is beyond me (and beyond the government too, by all accounts.)

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/583116/IPOL_BRI%282017%29583116_EN.pdf
European Brexit Impact Assessment Study on NI.

how that can be done is beyond me

Easy peasy lemon squeasy. Cancel brexit

There are now hundreds of thriving Remain in EU groups all over the UK, need a few jolly link up parties with those in NI, Scotland and friends ROI. They're all cross party which might be an asset.

Dominic Grieve, tory remainer has said, the shift in public opinion is what will change the MPs votes.

@RhuBarbella that makes me very afraid.

I really do think that violence could return if there is a massive economic downturn which is seen again as Britain's fault.

@Kofa I just wish everyone was interested in educating themselves about the issues. Sadly a lot including Boris Johnson apparently are not.

In reality not everybody has the time, inclination or even the education to understand it all. Trying to find factual, non biased information is incredibly difficult.

And giving Gisela Stuart a soapbox.
Quite - the Gisela Stuart who was the chair of the official leave campaign, and took the opportunity to scarper from Parliament when the election was called. Then had the gall to ask Campbell about working together to make Brexit work, while she pontificates from the sidelines. Glad he told her where to get off.

Apologies about the highlighting in that last post.