EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

[GirlsBlouse17]

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

Trying to find factual, non biased information is incredibly difficult.

Indeed, I was trying earlier to find some figures showing what the result of the 1922 referendum establishing the Irish Free State was, and didn't find it easily. A majority in Ireland voted for Independence

but one small sector, the Unionists in the North, had to be accommodated by a separate state. When 48% of us vote to stay in the EU, including a majority in NI, we are told to get lost.

However, I do think if Boris Johnson, still with ambitions to be PM, sensed a change in public mood, he would switch sides again. " Brexit's off, chums".

Would the proposed hard border actually result in that? I'm one of the many in N Ireland who considers themselves both British and Irish, as is our right under the GFA. I would object strongly to having to show a passport to travel within Ireland, and I'd object strongly to having to show a passport to travel to the rest of the UK. In fact, I think that would piss me off even more...

I think there is a reasonable prospect of a mostly-invisible border for individual travellers, assuming good will on both sides (that said the UK govt and press is currently busy pissing any remaining goodwill up the wall).

It's trade that is the real sticking point. I genuinely can't see any solution except for the whole of the island of Ireland to remain within the single market and the custom union. That's still bad for the Irish economy of course (there is an argument that it's worse, because IIRC the volume of north-south trade is smaller than that of rUK-Ireland trade) but it's possible to imagine how it might be practically possible in terms of customs infrastructure on both sides.

the result of the 1922 referendum establishing the Irish Free State was, and didn't find it easily

There was no such referendum. There were elections in June 1922, but only in the 26 counties which made up the Free State. The last all-island vote was the general election in 1918.

There was no such referendum.
Which explains why I couldn't find it!

I've been out, hence a delayed reply. I must do some more research on Irish history. I think I am better informed than many, but realise that I also have significant gaps in my knowledge.

As Frank posted upthread, the issue was raised before the referendum. However, the Leave campaign just ignored it or claimed it would be easy.

We even raised it on this very forum, only for one particularly unedifying Leaver to post "Not my monkeys, not my circus".

@CardinalSin

A crude way of putting it.

Now that the ROI may veto talks moving fwd until NI border is resolved it seems the circus is coming to town. The settlement increase to £40bn is all good and well. No progress on NI should in theory block progress to A50 stage two.

Anyone pick this up elsewhere?

And here's the leader of UKIP wanting to take back control of the UK's borders ... Wait, he's not.

Love the consistency of opinion here.

Henry Bolton OBE 🇬🇧‏Verified account
@_HenryBolton
Replying to @ErdmuteD @JuliaHB1
The UK isn’t asking for a border, the European Commission is. So they’re the ones who need to come up with a solution.

But, but, but, ... it was all about the money! The Brexiteers have said so categorically!

It's a constantly changing story. And yet it continues. I don't get how the country doesn't take to the streets and burn these idiots at the stake. "Going medieval" feeling very appropriate right now.

Well, we seem to be on our way back to a fiefdom situation...

Ah the irony of a kipper eh?
It's almost like they believe the bullshit that the eu don't control their external borders. Must be a real shock to them.

Can’t make this shit up. What did kippers expect to happen at the land border?

"Kippers" and "think" do not automatically go hand in hand...

Kippers 'think' through their cult leader. It's how cults work: hand over any capacity to reason to a clinically insane preacher whom you think has your interests at heart and you get Jim Jones in Guyana ...

Can’t make this shit up. What did kippers expect to happen at the land border?

They didn't need to think about it. They knew that all Brexit problems would be blamed on the EU for not bending over and giving everything they wanted.

@GladAllOver

And people will believe it because most don't understand the EU or the need for rules to protect the integrity of the Single Market.

Thread
about this article:

www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/the-irish-stance-against-brexit-is-a-dangerous-gamble/

@timoconnorbl
The absolute, purblind state of this. And this passes for analysis?

“If British politicians talked about a majority of the Irish electorate the way Varadkar does about Brexiteers, they would rightly be chastised” - bets? That rubbish in the Sun, that yahoo Leigh in the House and not a word of rebuke or dissociation?

That the Irish response has been studied politeness in the face of astonishing rudeness and ignorance, but a polite refusal to endorse the fantasies of Brexiters, isn’t an insult, lads. It’s the polite honesty of a patient friend.

Overt rubbish about Simon Coveney - the FG leadership contest was six months ago. Just because the UK’s foreign minister is a backstabbing piece of work on permanent manoeuvres doesn’t mean you can project your misfortune as universal.

And the whole thing an open exercise in, “Do the Paddies think they’re an actual country with interests they’re entitled to defend?” Croppies lie down, how are you.

As @ConorConneally put it - some world-class tansplaining. But, worse: counter-productive. If it induces this sort of gut-level fury at such arrogance and ignorance in people like me, you can take it the reaction is universal.

We are the best friends the UK has. We are trying to look out for your economic interests too. Culturally, politically, on every level - we are the best friends Britain has.

But we are friends. We are not servants. And things like this, like Davis’ insulting e-mails, like Johnson’s boorish attempts to get us to act against our interests to save his pachydermic political hide are treating us as servants.
(DD addressed an email to 'Kenny' and got a curt reply from PA)

And we cannot help you as friends if all we get is insults and everything slung back in our face when we point out we are friends not servants.

We have all worked so, so hard to make things better. We have made things better than we ever thought possible. And things like this seem hell-bent on making things bad again. Would you not, for the love of God, stop and think what you’re doing? Please?

there's almost no attempt in UK media to understand the Irish position. (beyond nonsense about Dublin being run by republicans). Galling

some world-class tansplaining
That is probably the best thing I've read in days. I'll be saving that one up

Why do people insist on bringing up the Common Travel Area when talking others are talking about goods and livestock?

The CTA is only for Irish and British Nationals (born) to travel without visa etc. People.

It wasn't the import free travel area. Why would all the jokes about the border smuggling exist if they could just go across in the light of day?