EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

[GirlsBlouse17]

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

I have zero patience for Brexidiots as I call them. But this is not one. Can we please be a bit more tolerant when we come across these rare gems?

People voted on a complex issue without being aware of all the issues. That's as true for most remainers as for leavers. It doesn't help to attack people for being underinformed.

@Mistigri

Yep. Exactly. I have to admit I didn’t know nearly as much then as I do now.

I batted away Leaver concerns without research.

Now I have done the research I know why I was so opposed!

Confirmation bias in action.

"The south also refer to the north..."

This is true. It is also bizarre in a way as Ireland stretches further north than Northern Ireland. So someone from the top of Donegal could refer to the North and be alluding to an entirely more southerly region. They would be driving down south to reach 'the North'.

One thing that I think is really telling in the OP- and indeed the responses- is the idea of 'the EU' as this independent entity.

The EU is, and always has been, its member states. In the U.K. the whole time I lived there it was referred to like a separate independent country. The idea someone can say 'well it involves ireland but not the EU' is insane to me - I'm Irish, I'm an EU citizen. We are likely to be utterly fucked by this, not in a hypothetical way, in a bomb scares and actual bombs way. My husband commutes daily from Dublin to Northern Ireland.

The EU is prioritising us, because we're a member likely to be screwed over and supporting us doesn't contradict the needs/wants of any other member. In the same way as the EU always took on board the views of the myriad British officials and elected representatives as members.

When papers reported 'the EU is imposing these health and safety laws, etc etc, on us' it was the result of a process British officials and reps were involved in. On some issues they held the minority view and didn't win, on some issues they had absolute veto power. Yet at no point in the referendum did people say 'maybe the problem is the officials and MEPs not representing us.' Instead it was presented as though all decisions people didn't like were taken by this nefarious external entity with unaccountable power.

I'm from a v small member state but we know our MEPs, we have them on the newsnight/question time equivalents. We feel European in a way I never found in England. And they will stand by us on this, and we will not roll over and take chances on it, because we lived a few short hours/minutes drive from carnage for thirty years and we will not go back.

I'm from a v small member state but we know our MEPs, we have them on the newsnight/question time equivalents.

Whereas we ended up with people like Farage and Nuttall. Most people didn't even realise that they were and still are MEPs. After the Referendum we had Farage and Nuttall on QT non-stop it seemed. In my EU constituency we also elected a Lib Dem, Catherine Bearder and a Green, whose name I would have to look up. I don't recall seeing either of them on QT.

Peregrina - while Gove did remove forrin authors from GCSE syllabuses, in a move that I find even more distasteful in some ways, he chose to allow the teaching of Irish texts because, you know, Ireland's more or less British anyway, isn't it ?

Radio that article is vile

It is and it's being reported on in the Irish Media and, as expected, people are not happy.

The leader of one of the parties in opposition to Varadkar's party has already issued a statement condemning it and defending Varadkar.
The Brexiteers really do not help themselves!

Is this just Irish texts prior to 1922? So Swift and Synge would still be OK, because they were part of the UK at the time, but modern Irish writers wouldn't? I suppose not - but my thoughts on Gove are barely printable.

Sorry Rdoo, my phone gave you a name change earlier! I'm actually in Dublin this weekend but haven't had much time to check news, I'm glad it's not being taken lying down. I mean, I know it's the sun, but still!

he chose to allow the teaching of Irish texts
The only Irish writer I can see on syllabuses is some poems from the lovely Seamus Heaney, from the north of Ireland.
No writers from the Republic of Ireland. No Yeats, No Friel, Wilde, Joyce, No lovely Jennifer Johnson.
Jonathon Swift would be perfect for these times.
What a waste.
Never mind the stunning writers who happened to be born outside these islands.
Gove. What a piece of work he is.
Still think this is a great thread, cheers OP.

from the north of Ireland.
No writers from the Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/no-such-place-as-the-north-of-ireland-dup-leader-arlene-foster-corrects-nolan-contributor-34807246.html
If Arlene don't like it, it's very tempting to use it!
indeed, words are very rascals

fair enough!

For clarification, I am not Snarlene!

I know! wee bit of fun.

The snarking about nationalists referring to it as the north really pisses me off. It's a cheap shot. It is used in protest from accepting British rule, making it clear that it is imposed against their will and they only recognise themselves as Irish. This includes the refusal of British passports in favour of Irish. It is not due to a lack of brains around geography.

I’m not snarking. It’s the name of my country. If reunification happens then that will change but as of now, and in my entire lifetime it has been Northern Ireland. I was born and live in Northern Ireland (to a Catholic, largely republican family, though I am atheist and do not identify as reublican or nationalist.)

You are snarking. It's akin to petty spelling and grammar correcting. I was also raised Catholic, Nationalist. I now am an atheist in a mixed marriage and as anti republicanism as you can be but I still respect others' rights to refuse to willingly accept British rule.

The name of the country at this moment in time is Northern Ireland. Refuse to recognise it all you want but that’s what it is.

Another important point OP is that Northern Ireland contains people who are only Irish citizens.

The Good Friday Agreement gives people in NI the right to choose only British citizenship, only Irish or both (assuming they're otherwise entitled of course, which most of them are). That means some people living in NI are Irish only, not British. If the UK does leave, there'll be a group of people who are solely citizens of an EU country, suddenly outside the EU. That's a pretty unusual situation, so of course the EU wants to be involved in the settlement arrangements: to ensure the rights of their people.

I absolutely recognise it as Northern Ireland. But I respect other's beliefs not to. It is condescending and disrespectful to imply people use the descriptor in stupidity rather than protest.

I didn’t imply anything. Read my post. It’s says Northern Ireland. That’s it. It makes no comment on why I think they have used an incorrect name.

If the UK does leave, there'll be a group of people who are solely citizens of an EU country, suddenly outside the EU

I'm sure I could probably google it but as an idle thought, I wonder how many Irish citizens are in the UK in total, as well as those in NI. As it currently stands, we are told we have automatic settled status, but no one really knows what will happen in a couple years. Going further off topic, I wonder if the citizen rights of children born to Irish parents will change too?

With your background you have no excuse not to understand why other people might consider themselves to have a legitimate reason to call the place they're from the north of Ireland rather than Northern Ireland, @BatteredBreadedOrSouthernFried.

It angers me so much when people correct me, and say I'm not from Derry in the north of Ireland. I never say Londonderry and rarely say Northern Ireland. But I never correct anyone who does because I can appreciate their different traditions/political affiliations/familial pressures etc...

Who are you to tell me, or any other poster, we are wrong about what we name the place we're from? Names can be an important part of identity, and the names of people's own choosing should be respected.

Under the GFA I have a legitimate right to work peacefully towards a United Ireland, and using this nomenclature is one of the ways that I do so.