EU ultimatum regarding Northern Ireland border

[GirlsBlouse17]

Just been watching the BBC news about the EU demanding we must come up with a solution to the Northern Ireland border issue by the beginning of December.

My immediate thought was what the bugger has it got to do with the EU if we wished to put up a hard border between northern and Southern Ireland. Of course I understand that in reality a hard border is probably not ideal because of the turbulent history of Northern Ireland, but putting that aside, my question is why should this be part of the EU's Brexit negotiation. I don't consider it any of their business. Just because Southern Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland won't be is not a reason for the EU to demand we don't have a hard border. If France left the EU for example, they would be quite within their right to put up a hard border between itself and any EU countries bordering it.

I will never understand why people are so concerned with our borders but can't understand why other countries or blocs may be concerned with theirs without seeing the sheer hypocrisy of it. But when it comes to NI it's simple I suppose, a lot of mainlanders don't acknowledge it's existence and most brexiteers don't want you to scratch at that.

But yes girl, kudos for listening now at least. Still more than some are willing to do

Oh what a well informed and sensitive OP

GhostofFrankGrimes
Inevitable, blame for the brexit mess is being shifted to remainers who should have educated leavers

As it is such a major issue it should have been brought up by both sides.

Neither campaign can be held up as some sort of moral high ground.

Individuals had no power. The messages were being conveyed by media and political parties.

and neither of those gave a shiny shit about anything other than point scoring off each other, maybe if they actually put forward the issues from the start we wouldn't be were we are now.

Or individuals could have cut through the crap and done some independent research.

We will never know just how many did their own research, but far too many people rely on and believe those in positions of trust without question.

I'm glad this thread has helped, OP. I would think it wholly irresponsible of any politicians to send things backwards along the border and worry that a great deal of the distrust and historical hurt still lies quite shallow beneath the surface.

It's complicated but very simple girls blouse!

And I don't take offence at the term southern ireland...

A lot of us in the north refer to the south as the south...we don't say we're going to the Republic on our holidays..

The south also refer to the north...

Just so I'm not thought of as a misinformed interloper.

If you want to learn about Northern Ireland watch the BBCs Blame Game. It’s not only hilarious but very true and informative.

I have just finished watching the Bobby Sands film - it's harrowing. But it ended on a positive note in that the politicians realised that they had to do something, which led eventually to the Good Friday Agreement.

Will our own UK politicians begin to see some sense, or will the right wing Tories continue to bluster?

To complicate it more there are ulster Scot connections ..counties that belong to the south but are technically in the north..oh and a parochial and presbyterian government that doesn't believe in the rights of the woman or homosexuality..whilst the south who previously lived under the shackles of the Catholic Church have embraced homosexuality. ..

This sort of thing does not help matters on Ireland.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/4940971/irelands-naive-young-prime-minister-should-shut-his-gob-on-brexit-and-grow-up/

It's a bit rich to criticise ordinary citizens like the OP for voting without thinking about the consequences for Northern Ireland when nearly 500 MPs did exactly that in February 2017 when voting on the A50 notification.

We should not be holding ordinary citizens to standards that our elected representatives can't live up to.

Anyway to respond to the OP, apart from the geopolitical issues, the UK can erect any sort of border it wants (as can the EU: borders have two sides). But it can't do so without consequences.

If Ireland and Northern Ireland were better understood in Britain in general, it would've been obvious to most voters that the border would be a problem on Brexit. As it is, understanding is woeful. That carries on up the chain, with both May and Brokenshire (the secretary of state for Northern Ireland!) occasionally coming out with breathtakingly ignorant comments.

OP, it's important to understand that no one involved wants a hard border - UK, EU, NI, ROI all want the status quo to remain. However, this just isn't legally possible if the UK leaves the single market and the customs union.

I for one am extremely grateful that the EU is placing such importance on NI. As quite frankly, the UK doesn't seem to give a shit.

Radio that article is vile

There is no problem with answering your question, but the phrasing of the original question was not that of someone looking for a factual answer to a genuine question but of someone looking for validation of an already held belief which has been bourne out by your subsequent posts about the referendum.

In terms of your actual question:
There are soft borders I.e. no customs between EU countries plus those who are in the common market as tax is not paid on goods being moved between these countries.

All the exterior borders are hard borders with customs as tax is paid on products moving through these borders. Obviously they have to be policed to stop people smuggling.

After Brexit, for the first time ever, the Republic of Ireland will be in the EU and Northern Ireland will no longer be part of the EU so the customs borders should come back into force. Obviously this would be a nightmare for the people in Northerrn Ireland and the Republic but is ultimately a problem caused firstly by the historic British colonisation of Ireland and then the retention of Northern Ireland as part of the UK and Brexit. All of which are actions taken by Britain / the UK and not the EU.

We have chosen to leave the EU and are expecting them to also change their rules to solve a problem we have caused.

The Good Friday agreement is yet another thing which people should have thought about as part of their voting choice in the referendum. As is the future of the people of Gibraltar.

You would have thought that the politicians who supported Brexit would have had a plan for these issues rather than dumping them on the EU' s doorstep after they decided to leave.

This would no doubt have played a role in why the people of Northern Ireland voted to remain and not leave in the referendum.

@GirlsBlouse17

Interesting thread. Good content. Thanks to all for posting. Certainly learned a lot.

But to all (ok, some) Remainers on this thread.

FOR ONCE - and I do mean this - we have a Leaver (I’m assuming that’s the case) who is asking a serious question and has a solid intellect and a willingness to learn about something. Why on earth would we beat her up?

The Remain campaign did a horrible job getting the facts out. Dramatised everything to the point where it wasn’t believable. I’m not even sure the Remain camp knew enough to challenge Brexit as it does today. I certainly did not.

I have zero patience for Brexidiots as I call them. But this is not one. Can we please be a bit more tolerant when we come across these rare gems?

Rant over.

In defence of the OP, there is a shocking lack of education in mainland Britain about Northern Ireland just as there is in England about the relative standings of Wales and Scotland and how Britain and the UK operates. We live in one of the more legally complex unions in the world and there seems to be no effort to ensure citizens understand how it works.

I would also say that if OP is getting into from many mainstream media outlets, there is even now a deliberate distortion of facts to make the EU put to be the bad guys in these negotiations.

DH is fro. ROI and I am English and the number of weird, inappropriate comments we have received of the years is boggling. Usually asking how he (an athiestic, former Catholic) was allowed to marry me (an athiestic former Protestant)

You would have thought that the politicians who supported Brexit would have had a plan for these issues rather than dumping them on the EU' s doorstep after they decided to leave.

Recollect that the previous N Ireland Secretary was Theresa Villiers, who is known to have voted Leave, and not as far as I know, particularly well informed about Ireland. I think that just shows how the southern English Tory mindset works - shove someone in NI and forget about the place.

Going back to Gove and furrin authors being banned - would that also apply to Swift and Gulliver's Travels? Or does he get a pass because he was deemed to be 'Anglo-Irish'. What a chump Gove was in Education - just think of classic playwrights and authors excluded from the Curriculum, especially ones writing at the time when the country was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, so could be said to be UK authors. [rant about Gove over]

just as there is in England about the relative standings of Wales and Scotland and how Britain and the UK operates.

Just a little personal anecdote here - I grew up in Wales and came back to England, (having been born in England), when I was ten. I immediately noted that our school books were different - a one line mention 'Wales was conquered' was all that was said in the English history book. Where were the stories of our brave Welsh Princes? Where was the information about our rich culture and language?

It always makes me thing of this John Redwood moment...