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Brexit

Westministenders: The Tory Civil War – The Knives Are Out Again. A Big Battle Looms.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2017 13:56

Today has seen the publication of a story about how Johnson and Gove are holding May hostage in a ‘soft coup’ and have made various demands over what they want for a hard Brexit. The letter which was for May’s and Barwell’s eyes only has some how leaked. Don’t forget how Gove has just joined the Brexit Cabinet.

It comes at a time, when the Observer is also leading with an editorial demanding Johnson goes over his handling of the Nazarin Zagheri-Ratcliffe case as well as his long list of poorly judged comments which have had diplomatic consequences and another newspaper is leading with a story about how 40 Tories are ready to no-confidence May.

It all smacks of a personal battle between May and Johnson to govern the party, which has been playing out publicly for some time, most noticeable in the parallel Tory party conference leadership speeches and Johnson’s freelancing.

Johnson also seems to be potentially caught up, with what happens in the Mueller investigation due to a photo and lying about having met Misfud which could be politically damaging.

Priti Patel’s –sacking-- resignation also fits in neatly with the story. The Foreign Office were not informed and there is the curious side story that May DID know various details but told Patel to keep quiet, so not to embarrass the FCO. Or more to the point, be seen to be undermining Johnson.

Whether this is true or not we don’t know. It does have implications if its true, but it also says something if its not too. Why leak the story at all? Once again its about the Johnson v May dynamic.

As it stands, if Gove and Johnson have been leading May then why would they decide to ditch her and go for power without her?
Notably Gove has the best satisfaction scores of the Cabinet amongst Tories on Conservative Home too. He has had a lot of favourable comments over his statements over pesticides. The pair seem to have put differences aside and are working together. And May has become more and more of a liability. Johnson, also came second favourite to be Tory leader amongst Tories (if you discount don’t knows and none of the aboves). Maybe they fancy their chances…

Or it’s a last ditch attempt to cling on to that power as threats that Johnson might finally get the boot – if Zagheri-Ratcliffe does have her sentence extended and Johnson’s position is no longer tenable for even May’s self-preservation. Whilst much has been framed about it being about May’s political survival, its definitely not just her whose future is in doubt. Who was the ‘dead wood’, that young Tories demanded be ditched in a reshuffle to bring in young blood? Either way, Gove has firmly hitched his wagon to Johnson's effectively repeating Johnson's dismissal of Zagheri-Ratcliffe's case.

Anyway another week and another set of high political drama is a foregone conclusion.

A round up of other developments this week:

Tory Party / Government

  1. May announces intention to enshrine Brexit leaving date in law to force rebels to tow the line. This has many implications, not least tax related and putting more pressure on the UK government. It’s generally regarded as a desperate move by anyone sane.
  2. The Impact Assessments were a dogs dinner that was done at the last minute, and were not worth the paper they were written on. There was no detail to them.
  3. Priti Patel’s –sacking—resignation after having undocumented and unauthorised meetings with a series of Israel ministers. And then lying about it.
  4. Penny Mordaunt, who lied about the UK not having a veto to stop Turkey joining the EU, replaced Patel.
  5. Damien Green Porn. Another ex-policeman is backing the story that it was found on his computer despite Green’s denials.
  6. The ongoing Zagheri-Ratcliffe story with Iran and Johnson’s gaff and none apology
  7. Photograph of Johnson with ‘The Professor’ Misfud has been found. This links Johnson to how events in the US might pan out. If there are lots more revelations in the Mueller inquiry about him, then that might reflect on Johnson and make him subject to some difficult questions. Politically this might be problematic for Johnson.
  8. Claims that the whips office leaked the name of someone who reported allegations against Nigel Evans which occurred 6 months after Evans had been cleared of rape and the sexual assault of six men
  9. Suspended Tory MP Charlie Elphicke has complained that he is yet to be informed of what he has been accused of.
  10. Young Tory MPs issue threat to May that she brings in young blood and gets rid of ‘dead wood, who do nothing but screw up’. Give her until the New Year to do so.
  11. 40 Tories apparently ready to no confidence May.
  12. Lord Ashcroft’s latest poll reveals a very small percentage of people want a no deal situation despite all the noise of it being a good idea.
  13. Lord Ashcroft mentioned in the Paradise papers. Reported as domiciled in Belize despite assurances given to parliament that he would give up his non-dom status and pay tax in the UK as a Lord.

Parliament / Opposition both inside and outside parliament
14) May facing a possible revolt over Universal Credit. MPs due to vote on reducing wait times.
15) Talk that there are enough Tory Rebels prepared to back a Dominic Grieve amendment to force a meaningful vote on the Brexit Deal.
16) May under increasing pressure from business leaders to make a deal after a meeting with them at no. 10.
17) Lots of distraction in the Paradise Papers generally which raises the question over the power and influence of the super rich versus the poor. This plays well to Labour’s narrative and against the idea of a low tax post Brexit Britain.
18) Lord Kerr, author of the a50 clause states that May has misled the public and insists that it is reversible.
19) New Money Laundering and Sanctions Bill in the Lords. Government looking to omit 4th EU directive on tax avoidance. Naturally raises questions about whether UK would adopt new rules due to come into force the week after Brexit Day.
20) Money Laundering Bill also has lots of overlap with immigration and home office operations, raising some rather sinister questions over who could be affected and why. Potential for abuse seems to be huge.
21) Leave leaning Cornwall and Grimsby seeking special status in the face of Brexit – in line with remaining to preserve business / economic interests
22) Suicide of Welsh Assembly Labour member who was under investigation for sexual harassment
23) A Labour MP accuses the already suspended fellow Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins of inappropriate behaviour.

EU
24) Ireland demands the UK stays in the customs union.
25) Brexit talks have not progressed at all despite apparently being speeded up. Barnier saying that progress in December only possible if UK makes moves on the settlement deal. Prospect of stage two being delayed until March being raised. This leaves just 7 months to come to a deal, which plays to the No Deal Crowd’s interests.
26) EU believe the UK are not working in the best interests of the UK and there is a failure by May and Davis to understand the process or what No Deal will mean.
27) EU signalling that there is no bespoke transition. Only available options ae EEA or EFTA fudges.
28) Increasing view in Brussels that No Deal likely. EU think May hasn’t got the authority to come to a deal and its easier for her to drag UK off the cliff. Though they have doubts she will survive much longer.

World
29) Trump sides with Putin above the US Intelligence Community over the Russian election interference. On Veterans Day.
30) US’s Wilbur Ross said UK will have to dump European food safety standards and that losing our passporting rights to the EU would harm our interests with the US.
31) Developments in Lebanon, with it being said that Saudi Arabia said to have declared war. Many would consider this to be a proxy war against Iran. Crown Prince has purged political opponents including several with significant Wall Street interests. Eight died in a helicopter crash.
32) Large scale far right march in Poland as part of their Independence Day.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
RhiannonOHara · 18/11/2017 13:13

Thank you Mighty and woman.

DD's "friends" say that he might quit because civil servants are "freezing him out" Diddums. Fuck's sake. I just want some grown-ups in government.

justicewomen · 18/11/2017 14:09

Excellent argument in FT today , really capturing the hardline Brexiters so aptly; and the risks to the rest of us

www.ft.com/content/c276ed98-be8e-11e7-9836-b25f8adaa111

Peregrina · 18/11/2017 14:54

"We can't know what will happen in the future."
That is perfectly true, of course. Who would have predicted at the 2016 triumphalist Tory Conference that the Conference the following year would be a complete and utter shambles, and a self inflicted one at that?

However as Eeeeeowwwfftz is saying, some things don't come from nowhere. We had the press talking up UKIP, wall to wall Farage on the BBC, yet, as I have said before, at last year's Sleaford by-election UKIP came a very poor second. The Press screamed about Labour coming 4th, which it did, but there were precious few votes between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th places. But the Press weren't watching, so they didn't see UKIP collapsing. Then again, they were dismissive of Momentum, but those were real people signing up to Momentum. Then there were people like me, who was heartily sick of being fobbed off by my then Tory MP, and decided come September 2016 that I was going to do my utmost to get her voted out. I can't have been alone, because we did duly get her voted out.

SwedishEdith · 18/11/2017 15:04

So let's go back further, and imagine that Ed Miliband had led Labour to victory in 2015. I think if the popular mindset were such that it votes for "Red" Ed over Cameron, then the popular mindset would have been such that the government would not have lost an In-Out EU referendum

There wouldn't have been a referendum if Ed had won. He was very clear about that. I suspect because he knows how prevalent Ikea Man is.

annandale · 18/11/2017 15:09

Two things killed her off for me peregrina. Dropping out of my son's school hustings a few days before the election; there were about 100 new voters in that one school, plus all their parents, and she lost by less than 900 votes. And the fact that she voted for A50, as the representative of one of the most Remain and arrogant constituencies in the country, and as far as I can discover never deigned to make a speech in Parliament explaining why her constituency needed to Remain. Even if she still voted for it, she could at least have bloody well spoken up for us.

Peregrina · 18/11/2017 15:15

And, annandale, after not bothering to explain to her constituents, when the election was called, started bleating that she voted Remain. Too late - your actions since then have shown that you have joined the Leave camp.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2017 17:00

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
Interesting. Ads against “Brexit sabotage” Tory MPs on Facebook have been placed sponsored by “Voter Consultancy Ltd”.

Surely not the same company run by Vote Leave chief tech officer, also son of Boris Johnson’s Mayoral deputy...?

Westministenders: The Tory Civil War – The Knives Are Out Again.  A Big Battle Looms.
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/11/2017 17:23

www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-officials-unimpressed-with-boris-johsnsons-grasp-on-dangers-posed-by-brexit-36331044.html
Irish officials unimpressed with Boris Johsnson's grasp on dangers posed by Brexit
Civil servants had to clarify what Johnson said

In a worrying development, civil servants frequently had to clarify the Tory politician's statements during a series of meetings in Dublin.

"He wants Brexit and wants it now. He doesn't care if it's hard or soft. He just wants out," a well-placed source said.

Why would he 'just want out' with no interest in how? Would it be because of his own political ambition or because he believes in Brexit that much. But surely it if was because he believed in Brexit that much he'd have a preference for hard or soft Brexit...

...Oh.

Anyway this from Ireland's RTE

www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/1117/920981-long-read-brexit/
The Brexit Veto: How and why Ireland raised the stakes

In it, it says:
The Sun quoted unnamed Conservative ministers who whispered that "Sinn Féin/IRA" had leaned on Varadkar to ambush the UK.

Er wtf???

Anyway, this is key:

It also was becoming clear to officials in Brussels – and Dublin – that there were things outside the strict remit of the Good Friday Agreement where Brexit was going to have an adverse impact on daily life.

"The deeper you go," says one EU source familiar with the mapping exercise, "the more examples there are, more areas where you find out that actually a lot of the Good Friday Agreement requirements are more implicit than anything else.They rest on the status quo, and that status quo involves membership of the EU single market."

One example is cross-border health.

Look closely, and you can see where the single market is essential to its functioning.

It requires equality of patient rights, but also things like single standards for medical devices, the approval of medicines at EU level, mutual recognition of medical qualifications, mutual acceptance of cross border ambulance activity.

"All of this is completely aligned at the moment," says the source, "because Ireland and the UK are members of the EU."

In other words, there is a lot more at stake than simply the explicit North South cooperation established by the Good Friday Agreement.

This reality was carefully reflected in the Task Force working paper on Ireland.

"Already prior to undertaking this [mapping] exercise," the paper stated, "the EU's guiding principles underlined that an important part of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural activity on the island of Ireland currently operates on a cross-border basis, underpinned by joint EU membership of the UK and Ireland."

The paper went on: "The EU and the UK have committed to protecting and supporting the continuation and development of this cooperation and of the functioning of the institutions established by the Good Friday Agreement."

The fact that the paper divides the concept into two parts is subtle, but crucial: both the EU and UK were committed to safeguarding this cooperation, and the functioning of the institutions established by the Belfast Agreement.

^In other words, there were now two, not one, concepts to look after.
It was further strengthened in the final paragraph of the document.
"It consequently seems essential," the Task Force paper states, "for the UK to commit to ensuring that a hard border on the island of Ireland is avoided, including by ensuring no emergence of regulatory divergence from those rules of the internal market and the Customs Union which are (or may be in the future) necessary for meaningful North South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the Good Friday Agreement."^

Here, there is even a third notion: an all-island economy.

In other words, taken altogether, in order for the EU and UK to protect the Good Friday Agreement, and meaningful North-South Cooperation, and the all-island economy, there cannot be any "regulatory divergence" from the rules governing the single market and the customs union.

Therefore, to avoid a hard border, both sides of the island would have to maintain the same rules as codified in the EU customs union, and the single market.

One senior EU official has interpreted the text as follows: "No regulatory divergence means the same thing as being in the customs union and the single market.

"A guarantee of no legal divergence means some kind of legal obligation to follow [EU] rules. I just can’t understand it any other way."

Interestingly, it says that Brokenshire has been insistent on the we are leaving the single market and customs union as a whole country as recently as the 7th Nov. Yet ironically Gove seemed sympathetic to the idea of an 'all island economy' for agriculture although was otherwise not really listening.

Ireland are also nervous because Davis plankface Davis has said that this taskforce paper undermined the constitutional position of NI in the UK. (FFS!)

OP posts:
woman11017 · 18/11/2017 19:09

Where there's muck/ brexit, there's brass? Companies popping up to help with your brexit business planning.
www.icaew.com/en/about-icaew/who-we-are/more-than-youd-imagine/suffering-from-brexit-blindness?utm_source=doubleclick&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=imagine

Interesting use of 'woman' in that intimidating ad, red is there one for Grieve, referring to his gender?

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2017 19:24

Carole Cadwalladr‏ @carolecadwalla
Thomas Borwick - son of ex Kensington Tory MP, worked for Cambridge Analytica then Vote Leave. His company Voter Consultancy now bullying Brexit MPs with Facebook dark posts. Why? Who’s paying?

Apparently this fella is involved with this group.

Thomas Borwick‏*@TBorwick*
Astonishing that #CyberBullying of the right does not get serious attention, thebackbencher.co.uk/young-tory-urged-to-commit-suicide-by-hard-left-trolls/ @BBCPolitics

Funnily enough given what the ads are saying:

Borwick publicly supported Brexit in the 2016 referendum and, with her son, Thomas Borwick, campaigned for the Vote Leave campaign. This is in spite of the fact that the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (in which the Kensington constituency is located) had a greater proportion of EU nationals than any other London Borough in 2016. 69% of the Borough, in contrast to Borwick, voted in favour of Britain's continued membership of the European Union.

Oh the irony.

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woman11017 · 18/11/2017 19:31

Just come back from talk ( in lovely multi cultural Whitechapel East London, with yummy Bangladeshi curries) by brave journalist Gary Young, who conducted this interview with a fascist fool.

www.cetusnews.com/news/Gary-Younge-interviews-Richard-Spencer---Africans-have-benefited-from-white-supremacy-.SJizfL00-.html

I think Younge 'owns' him as the youngsters say.

I was just going to post that Cadwalldr one red

@Anna_Soubry
Anna Soubry MP Retweeted MsM Resist
Seriously concerning - these allegations need full and proper investigation

There are some journalists like Cadwalladr with such courage.

I remember that poor kid who killed himself. It was the Battle Bus? Questions about which vanished with the last election?

What a shower these torykippers are.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2017 20:12

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/twitter-neo-nazi-deadline-crackdown-hate-speech-december-a8062556.html
Twitter gives neo-Nazis and extremists a deadline to quit hate groups or risk being barred
Anyone affiliated with violent organisations risk suspension, new policy states

Twitter has announced it will be monitoring its users’ behaviour “on and off” the social media platform, in a bid to tackle hate speech.

Anyone affiliated with extremistorganisations will be suspended according to the new policy, which will come into force on 18 December.

The new rules state: “You also may not affiliate with organisations that -whether by their own statements or activity both on and off the platform -use or promote violence against civilians to further their causes.”

How does that fit with Leave.Eu and the post they made of Cadwalladr in the last week? If they did that in the future would they be banned?

Twitter users will also be banned from using “hateful images or symbols” in their profile images of headers.

“You also may not use your username, display name, or profile bio to engage in abusive behaviour, such as targeted harassment or expressing hate towards a person, group, or protected category,” the rules state.

“You may not engage in the targeted harassment of someone, or incite other people to do so. We consider abusive behaviour an attempt to harass, intimidate, or silence someone else’s voice.

“You may not direct abuse at someone by sending unwanted sexual content, objectifying them in a sexually explicit manner, or otherwise engaging in sexual misconduct.”

This might go badly wrong too... with it being used maliciously and applied poorly.

That said, when can we expect Trump to get banned? (He won't. Which will just prove this is all a sham).

OP posts:
Peregrina · 18/11/2017 20:27

son of ex Kensington Tory MP,

But note - EX MP. I know MPs are supposed to be representatives and not delegates but if you go totally against how your constituents feel, then you risk getting your comeuppance at the ballot box. Who would have thought that Kensington could ever vote for anything but Tory?

mathanxiety · 18/11/2017 21:21

RTB
The government's unwillingness to shape Brexit is the crunch point. As soon as they do, people's ideas of what Brexit is will be shattered. It won't be what they wanted and they will be disappointed and won't be happy with how it affects their lives.

The battle is for who is to blame for that. The Government may struggle to contain that, for all the blaming of the EU.

That's why nothing has moved forward and why the government is afraid to move forward.

And this is why Theresa May will go down in history as a failed leader.
"Brexit means Brexit" was one of the biggest cop-outs of all time. You cannot keep on kicking the can down the road ad infinitum, but she thought she could. And in a theatre where negotiations are not going to involve you give a little, I give a little, but will be quite techy and will involve rules (as Dominic Grieve points out) wrapping yourself in the flag and marching in in adversarial mode marks you as a charlatan.

mathanxiety · 18/11/2017 21:26

Eeeeeowwwfftz
But with so much entrenched opinion on all sides, how do you go about shifting public opinion?

You do as Dominic Grieve does and hint darkly about Russian string pulling. You certainly do not try to rely on rational analysis of why Brexit is a looming disaster or why Russia is possibly the least likely foreign actor to be involved. If nothing else, the referendum (and also the Falklands issue many decades before) illustrated how there are hot buttons that never really go away. Russia is one of them. So is the ra-ra type of patriotism.

mathanxiety · 18/11/2017 21:32

Holliewantstobehot
What makes me think we have a chance of reversing brexit is the attitude of the brexiteers themselves. Why are they in such a rush to leave? Why do they seem scared of negotiating a trade deal, preferring to go no deal? Why do they shut down any kind of debate by calling people remoaners or traitors?

Because this is a religious crusade. They speak the language of fanaticism. Traitors are heretics. I do not share the optimism of those here who think Brexit can be reversed. I think there is a rump of opinion that is impervious to reasoning and will be swept up in a massive cloud of cognitive dissonance even when the Brexit chickens come home to roost.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/11/2017 23:06

I don't understand what motivates someone to continually defend Putin and Russia in the face of mounting evidence that they have been engaged for some years in an internet war against the West.

It is perverse to ignore all the evidence accumulating from separate investigations by different people - including different police / intelligence servcies - in several Western countries
the US, UK, Germany, France etc
of Russia vigorously supporting hard right movements and trying to damage more mainstream politicians & parties

e.g. the German police have proved that it was Russia who hacked the German Parliament a couple of years ago
e.g. The Russians mounted a concerted Twitter onslaught during the recent German elections and spread fake news about Muslims before then
e.g. the unmasking of a prolific Tweeter as a Russian

Of course the Russians didn't create the 52% Brexit vote or the rise of Trump; nearly all of that was due to other causes:
decades of domestic political incompetence & callousness, badly handled globalisation, austerity, nationalism, decades of rightwing hate media,
BUT
all these problems made both the Uk and US divided and vulnerable
All their activities and interference probably did affect just a few % - and hence swung the 2 most damaging votes in the West since WW2

BigChocFrenzy · 19/11/2017 00:29

Brilliant RTE article on NI, Brexit and the reasons behind the current furore

https://www.rte.ie/amp/920981/

imo, it highlights 2 important pts - which I hadn't realised - which explain why the RoI is pushing the UK for written specifics now
If the Uk was allowed to proceed to Phase II (Trade) before giving these:

  1. The RoI has a veto in Phase I.
    BUT
    if the Brexit talks move to phase II, then the RoI effectively / politically loses its veto.
    So, if Phase II means that a hard NI border is inevitable, it's too late for the veto - or at least the RoI would risk being seen as wrecking the A50 talks.

  2. The EU is worried that the UK could use NI as a bargaining chip in Phase II
    They look at how this govt has prioritised party over country and think the UK govt may use NI as a hostage
    Think about that:
    Barnier, the RoI - people who deal face to face with the DD, fear the UK govt could hold them to ransom by threatening to harm one of the UK's own nations, unless the UK negotiators receive key concessions which would save the UK govt from political damage.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/11/2017 00:35

UK is defying international sanctions to pay Iran more than £400m. Nothing to do with saving Boris Johnson’s career……*

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/11/18/uk-is-defying-international-sanctions-to-pay-iran-more-than-400m-nothing-to-do-with-saving-boris-johnsons-career/

Isn’t it amazing how the Tories can coincidentally find huge amounts of money when they’re really struggling?
In this case, it was around £450 million that had been put into a bank account controlled by the High Court by the Labour government in 2002.

The money is legitimately owed to Iran, but couldn’t be handed over because that country is subject to international sanctions.

So, what has changed since 2002? Absolutely nothing.
Oh – apart from the fact that Boris Johnson’s career is in danger because of his complete and utter incompetence in the case of a UK citizen imprisoned in Iran.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/11/2017 00:40

Britain First deputy arrested over speech made at Belfast rally

(arrested today for speech this summer)

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/18/britain-first-deputy-arrested-over-speech-made-at-belfast-rally

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/11/2017 07:55

Gerry Adams to step down in end of an era for Irish nationalism

mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1DI0SE

(Reuters) - Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams, a pivotal figure in the political life of Ireland for almost 50 years, said on Saturday he will step down as party leader and complete a generational shift in the former political wing of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Reviled by many as the face of the IRA during its campaign against British rule in Northern Ireland, Adams reinvented himself as a peacemaker in the troubled region and then as a populist opposition parliamentarian in the Irish Republic.

Adams said he would be replaced as party president, a position he has held since 1983, at a party conference next year. He would also not stand for reelection to the Irish parliament.

"Republicanism has never been stronger... But leadership means knowing when it is time for change. That time is now," Adams said in an emotional speech to a packed party conference.

"I have complete confidence in the next generation of leaders," he said.

Mistigri · 19/11/2017 07:56

The RoI has a veto in Phase I.

I sincerely hope Varadkar plays hardball on this.

I'm officially bored witless by Brexit now, except for the Irish issue.

woman11017 · 19/11/2017 07:57

That RTE article is excellent.BCF and red Our nearest democratic neighbours, saying what one would hope nearest democratic neighbours would, and discreetly side stepping what this country has done to its over the last couple of hundred years.

Gove and Johnson, the crocodiles.
There is no coup. Theresa May is safe. Go about your business.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5096823/DAN-HODGES-Theresa-prisoner-Brexit-crocodiles.html

Poor Nazarin's imprisonment was always as a hostage for that money, her husband was having to be so careful not to refer to it overtly. Sad

mathanxiety · 19/11/2017 07:58

BigChoc - it was the administration of Barack Obama that tapped the phones including the personal phone of Angela Merkel.

It was the Obama administration that was happy to see ultra right /fascist groups in Ukraine provide the muscle that effected a coup there and installed a hand-picked representative of the State Department as PM (Yatseniuk, known as 'Yats' to Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt of the State Dept).

You can't be simultaneously horrified at marches in Poland that feature unmistakable fascist overtones, but smile indulgently at the same sort of movement in Ukraine. Ultra nationalism in the post Soviet period in both states created a monster that was not fed by Russia.

The US has been ready and willing to talk to anyone in the former Warsaw Pact in order to further its own foreign policy aims - for example a missile site in Poland, NATO membership for Ukraine and heavy pressure on Brussels to admit Ukraine to the EU despite rampant corruption - and has pressed the EU (by means of its mouthpiece, the UK) to admit eastern bloc countries regardless of how repellent their political culture and corruption may be to Brussels or how much of a disruptive force they may be in the EU or how much they weaken the Euro. The US has been ready to use anyone willing to be used to further State Department ambition in eastern Europe, regardless of the impact on the EU.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion
We've been here before. For the past couple of months street protests in Ukraine have been played out through the western media according to a well-rehearsed script. Pro-democracy campaigners are battling an authoritarian government. The demonstrators are demanding the right to be part of the European Union. But Russia's president Vladimir Putin has vetoed their chance of freedom and prosperity.

It's a story we've heard in one form or another again and again – not least in Ukraine's western-backed Orange revolution a decade ago. But it bears only the sketchiest relationship to reality. EU membership has never been – and very likely never will be – on offer to Ukraine. As in Egypt last year, the president that the protesters want to force out was elected in a poll judged fair by international observers. And many of those on the streets aren't very keen on democracy at all.

You'd never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings.
[Seumas Milne]

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Tapped phone call, released by Moscow, between Victoria Nuland, State Dept, and Geoffrey Pyatt, US Ambassador to Ukraine, in which they discuss how actively they seek to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign nation.
Jonathan Marcus analysis: The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals. Russian spokesmen have insisted that the US is meddling in Ukraine's affairs - no more than Moscow, the cynic might say - but Washington clearly has its own game-plan.

Jonathan Marcus again:
An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings - US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.
The UN are 'useful idiots'?

Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.

And Marcus yet again:
Not for the first time in an international crisis, the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow. It certainly cannot win a short-term battle for Ukraine's affections with Moscow - it just does not have the cash inducements available. The EU has sought to play a longer game; banking on its attraction over time. But the US clearly is determined to take a much more activist role.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601G20140207
U.S. officials, while declining to confirm the recording’s contents, did not dispute its authenticity.

“I did not say it was not authentic,” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said at a news briefing.

Psaki also criticized Russian officials’ publicizing of the tape as “a new low in Russian tradecraft” and denied Washington was trying to meddle or engineer a particular outcome in Kiev.

“Absolutely not,” she said. “It should be no surprise that U.S. officials talk about issues around the world. Of course we do. That’s what diplomats do.”
Hmm

I am going with Marcus' assessment here.

What I am saying here is - the idea that the US is a friend of the EU is not necessarily true. No matter who is president, the US pursues its own narrow interests, and we should not be taken in by eloquence or charm or the personal charisma of any US president. The current incumbent makes it easy for us to see what lies beneath the surface; previous holders of that office have done a far better job of concealing it.

You can't simultaneously be worried about what US business is ready to do to the NHS and British business in general and not wonder what it might do if the EU were to disintegrate, with a market of 508 million people in different countries with different resources and different levels of economic vulnerability, ripe for the plucking. Look at what the US did to Bombardier if you want an example of how America does business.

HashiAsLarry · 19/11/2017 08:22

I find it out calling the us out as the bogeyman over russia when Russia are having massive influence there too a little Hmm. Both have their dodgy influence, as have the UK and other nations in many places. One doesn't negate the other.

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