Where have all the Brexiters gone?

[MsHooliesCardigan]

Just that really. 52% voted to leave. I know Mumsnet isn't completely representative of the electorate but you would expect at least a few people to be banging the Brexit drum. The ones that were quite vocal seem to have lost their voice. Perhaps they're just bored with the whole thing but their silence really is deafening.

Caroline was bringing up Croatia because she was wrong about the Croatian border

It rather looks that way doesn't it, which is ironic give the superior and haughty comments about the EU being a bit too difficult for me to understand and the demanding way in which I was asked to 'explain Croatia'

Never mind.

wisedad going back to a question I asked you a while ago; can you explain how we actually ceded sovereignty when even the government white paper said we didn't really, it just felt like it.

"I was referring to your claim that the EU wanted to stop this.
They didn't."

Yes they do.

You have to understand what the UK are proposing when supporting a 'no border' solution.

1/ “Full account should be taken of the fact that Irish citizens residing in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens "

Please explain what the EUs sticking point on this is?

2/ "The UK can provide a clear assurance that the CTA can continue to operate in the current form and can do so without compromising in any way Ireland’s ability to honour its obligations as an EU Member State, including in relation to free movement for EEA nationals in Ireland. If the EU wishes, the UK would be content for such an assurance to be refected in the Withdrawal Agreement"

Please explain what the EUs sticking point on this?

3/ Here is the UKs initial proposals for 'goods'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/637748/Futureecustomsarrangementss-aafuturepartnershipppaper.pdf

Please explain what the EUs sticking point is on this? The proposals include mirroring the EUs existing custom arrangements for external imports. In principle, what is the problem with this? The EU happily accept external imports via the existing CHIEF, custom and transit systems, with spot check enforcement, on all borders. Why are they demanding that the Irish/NI border must be a physical one? Where do the EU suddenly believe a huge route of 'illegal' trade is going to come from in NI when spot checks have been succesfully accepted as a satisfactory solution everywhere else? In short, what is the issue with 'union goods' becoming 'non-union goods' within the customs systems?

Clearly, there needs to be an ongoing 'partnership' agreement between the EU and the UK (just as there is now regards the customs systems) however, sharing a customs data and transit systems has absolutely nothing to do with what tariffs are applied to which goods. The current systems support all tariffs on all goods, union and non-union.

Barnier and Verhofstadt have apparently rejected outright any suggestion of customs data partnership prefering to demand a hard border, even prior to any discussion on what tariffs may or may not apply.

Why do you think that is?

Verhofstadt : "I have always thought that if a border is not visible, then it is no border," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41340804

Barnier : "Britain wants the EU to suspend the application of its laws, customs union and single market at what would be a new external border of the EU,” he said.

https://www.ft.com/content/e05b1903-2cb1-3c02-b78c-c4497a59bbde

They are absolutely demanding a hard EU border, whilst making weasley supposedly placatory suggestions about a 'sea' border. Its absolutely not neccesary UNLESS the EU refuse to share the existing customs data and transit systems. Give me one reason, why the EU would want to do that when they share those systems with other non eu nations?

My sticking point is indeed about VAT. Thats where the issue is. In real terms, IF the UK removed VAT, we could have a situation where the Irish would do all their shopping in NI. Whilst the current 3% VAT variance between Ireland and NI has had a negligible effect, (which ridicules the impact of the EU external tariff) a 23% reduction on the cost of goods (which is what the Irish pay in VAT today) could have a huge impact. However, todate, no one has suggested or proposed the removal of VAT, as to be frank, why would the UK want to? It raises income for both the UK and the EU.

The whole message so far regards 'negotiations' is the EU are approaching this from a position of putting the UK in a 'citizens' and 'goods' capacity far lower than Zimbabwe, the Balkans etc and an instant removal of any co-operation. That is their position.

Oh and PS. Remember Barniers comments above? Well Mr Barnier perhaps you can explain Croatia?

http://www.mvep.hr/en/info-servis/,14953.html

"Theres not even a signpost telling him hes leaving one for the other."

Or is it an exercise in "Let's Imagine"?"

There are many places there arent. Damn spit and blast, the pit bull locking jaws on my sentiment have turned up. Yep, my fault, carry on the ridicule, how clever of you.

"But that wasn't the position of your fellow leavers."

So what was the position of my fellow leavers regards NI/Ireland? I thought your complaint was that leavers hadnt given it a moments thought?

Damn spit and blast, the pit bull locking jaws on my sentiment have turned up. Yep, my fault, carry on the ridicule, how clever of you.

The trouble is caroline, you bring the ridicule on yourself.

You go around sneering at the knowledge of others and making comments you portray as facts but it then transpires you are incorrect.

Just 2 examples on this thread are your insistence that the are no borders between Croatia and Bosnia and that there are no signs between NI and Ireland.

When things like this are so easily proven to be incorrect it does somewhat undermine everything else you say.

I have learnt from posters on these threads that even in the days when the border was heavily guarded, there were still places where people who knew could cross over without border checks. Let's hope Vladimir gets in with one of these!

N.I will be the least of the EU’s worries if Austria’s Freedom party get into power - & that’s looking very likely.

I think you might be right surfer but not because of Austria necessarily, the fact is the EU are going to be more concerned with things happening the the countries that are still members than the issues in a country that's leaving.

The general consensus is that Brexit really isn't a high priority in any other EU country.

Banier is in a bit of a pickle when you think of it.

A.... He cuts then a deal, it's a good one. We prosper, other members not happy. He looks Bad.
B......He cuts us an OK deal... someone in EU loses because of it.. they are not happy casue a stink and he looks bad.
C.... He cuts us a bad deal..... We lose, the EU loses and members are not happy... and he looks bad.
D... He cuts NO deal.... We all lose and the EU members are all unhappy trouble abounds... he looks bad.

Oh and he wants Junkiers job.... This isn;t looking good for him any way you play it....

"2/ "The UK can provide a clear assurance that the CTA can continue to operate in the current form and can do so without compromising in any way Ireland’s ability to honour its obligations as an EU Member State, including in relation to free movement for EEA nationals in Ireland. If the EU wishes, the UK would be content for such an assurance to be refected in the Withdrawal Agreement"

Please explain what the EUs sticking point on this?"

This was not intitally the UK's position though was it? This is a (very sensible) concession they made to the EU.

3/..

Again, I would have thought that the sticking point will be in the detail and in what long term assurances the UK can make the EU. The paper you linked to makes it clear how challenging it could be:

"One potential approach would involve the UK mirroring the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world where their final destination is the EU. This is of course unprecedented as an approach and could be challenging to implement"

Can you not see how difficult this would be to do in practice? It is one thing to suggest, but quite another to provide assurances of how it would work in practice. It would be like me claiming to invent a teleporter by saying "a teleporter would be a really good idea!" I would have to actually design a working one to persuade people to scrap their cars.

So either the UK agrees to match the EU's requirements for imports (and would have to sign up to this being a long term thing), which might not be enough "sovereignty for some brexiteers, or we develop a system in which the final destination of goods has to be checked as they enter NI, and somehow find a way of tracking those goods. That will be a very difficult thing to do (not saying its impossible) and I can understand the EU not agreeing to it without a bit more detail of how it would work in practice.

Or E.... He persuades us to stay and scuppers all rEU grand aspirations
for life without the awkward squad.
F.... He creates a situation where UK joins EFTA and Sweden,
Denmark, Poland et al follow suit.

Barnier isn't going to come out of this well is he!

Has anyone else ever ordered something online without checking properly, only to find out it is being shipped from China or America or somewhere, and have to wait ages while it gets delayed at UK customs? I have. I have had to pay before as well to get it released from customs.

Obviously, if you order something from Germany or somewhere within the EU, this is not the case.

So say I (hypothetically) order a load of craft supplies from China. I am free to do this, but may have to pay customs tax on it and there may be a little more faff than if I imported something from within the EU. I could then sell them on to other people within the EU, and the goods should not be stopped at customs.

Now say post Brexit, I live in NI and order a load of goods from China or somewhere. It might be craft supplies, or it might be children's toys or electronics. I could drive down to a post office south of the border and post the goods from there to other parts of the EU. They will not be checked at customs, and there will be no import tax to pay because they are being shipped within the EU at that point.
Now this may be all well and good if the UK continues with the same regulations and tax on goods entering the UK as we did whilst in the EU. But we are under no obligation to (as the current Brexit model stands), and we could at any point in the future change our import regulations and taxes etc. The EU at that point has no control over what we agree with other countries, and no control over its border with the UK. So can you honestly not understand why the free movement of goods between both the EU and NI, and between NI and mainland UK could cause a problem?

In short, its about much more than VAT.

Barnier also has limited freedom over what he can offer us - there are 27 other countries to please, and all will have a different idea about the optimum final Brexit deal.

I'm happy to be told I'm missing the point here, because if I am life will be a lot easier, but I too am bemused about the instance that it's just VAT that is the the problem here.

No other country, outside the EU, has 'frictionless trade' with the member countries without contributions/ immigration.

If we were to retain the same terms as we have now as a 'third country' then that sets a precedent as a favoured nation and everyone else would want, and be entitled to, the same.

Either I'm massively missing the point here or Leavers are.

Which is it?

"I have learnt from posters on these threads that even in the days when the border was heavily guarded, there were still places where people who knew could cross over without border checks. Let's hope Vladimir gets in with one of these!"

Youre totally missing the point Peregrina. For some reason, the 'must have a border' EU, and remainers on here, believe 400,000 EU nationals that will have the right to live and work in Ireland, are then going to walk across the NI border with the intention of illegally overstaying, (with zero rights), in the UK.

Why oh why would they go to all that trouble via Ireland, when they can legally pop across the channel as a visitor, and overstay anyway?

And those who keep banging on about 'leavers demanded borders', know damn well, one issue for some leave voters was that said 400,000 eu citizens had the right to live, work, get housing, education, healthcare, benefits etc in the UK under FOM. No one, anywhere at any point demanded Brexit, in order to keep the Irish out. Its total shit stirring to the nth degree.

Squishy, I will come back to you, the Austrian election does indeed beckon!!!

Youre totally missing the point

I appreciate you're ignoring me caroline but it appears to be you who is totally missing the point.

It's generally accepted it isn't people that is the problem re borders, it is trade.

Youre totally missing the point Peregrina.

Lighten up. You should have been able to see it was a joke.

and remainers on here, believe 400,000 EU nationals that will have the right to live and work in Ireland, are then going to walk across the NI border with the intention of illegally overstaying, (with zero rights), in the UK.

Where, oh where, has anyone even intimated anything like that?

But the Irish/NI border is a serious issue. The Good Friday Agreement took a lot of hard work by a number of people, and to see the potential problems being dismissed as being something will get sorted out, annoys me. It won't be sorted out without substantially more work than May's Government appears to want to put into it.

sovereignty
I will answer. Busy weekend. Yes I know you all do too but hey.

Yeah busy weekend here too Wise , working , looking after the sick and dying . It genuinely terrifies me , that what we can offer to those who really need it the most will be decimated because of Brexit . I appreciate that people have come on and said that there will be a few years of hardship to get what they wanted , I am no superfan of the EU , it is what it is , and has become what it has because of our implicit cooperation ( 'our' being successive governments ) . But , those few years , well are we talking a couple , three , ten , fifteen , twenty ? You see why I want those impact assessments made public ? I want people to understand what they will be losing in order to gain , whatever it is they want to gain .

"It's generally accepted it isn't people that is the problem re borders, it is trade." Goodness, youve changed your tune bear since the Sufficient progress on Irish border thread. How many posts was it berating Faith that a soft border was still FOM? Perhaps we are making progress after all.

Peregrina, apols I didnt get your joke, and again context was coloured a/ by previous claims elsewhere on MN, and b/ bears post, "if there is no hard border between the U.K. and the EU, how are people who voted solely to 'get control of or borders' going to react?"

However, I think Ive clearly made my point about Vlad!

Of course the NI border is a serious issue, but theres clearly gameplaying going on when last month the EU said this;

"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required to avoid a hard border." They went on to say this, "This must be achieved in a way which ensures that Ireland's place within the Internal Market and Customs Union is unaffected "

Absolutely we all said.

Then this month, Guy Verhofstadt says this, "I have always thought that if a border is not visible, then it is no border,"

and Barnier says this, "Britain wants the EU to suspend the application of its laws, customs union and single market at what would be a new external border of the EU".

The UKs proposal paper is not as outrageous as MSM and the EU are making out. The EUs shifting attitude to agreeing a solution is.


Howabout....

"F.... He creates a situation where UK joins EFTA and Sweden,
Denmark, Poland et al follow suit."

Nice to see you.

Surferjet, thought you may like this re the Austrian election tonight.

Guy Verhofstad sending a party political broadcast to the Austrians to vote Neos. Their fate was sealed. Looks like they just managed 5% of the vote


https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/919467338948280320

Also, if you missed all the back story, heres a summary, House of Cards indeed. Cant blame the Russians this time, it was planted facebook 'Kurz supporters' by the mainstream SPO, spouting racist rubbish to make him appear racist. Where've we seen that before


www.politico.eu/article/austria-election-scandal-christian-kern-sebastian-kurz-haus-of-cards/

Anyway, Macrons looking positively geriatric on the world stage. A 31 year old Austrian Chancellor, who'd have thought it. Yet more interesting times ahead for the EU.