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Brexit

Westminstenders: The beginning of the dictatorship and the end of Boris?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2017 10:55

Brexit is being fought in the UK media and parliament on the premise that the EU is being difficult and obstructive.

The fallacy can not be understated.

What the UK fails to understand is the right of the EU to put their own interests before the UKs. It doesn't under that our demands cannot be met even if the EU wanted to for practical and legal reasons - not political ones because our understanding of the situation and law is so poor.

The net result is the slippage of the next phase of Brexit talks being pushed to Christmas by the EU due to lack of progress by the UK. Barnier is open to more regular and intense talks but this is bad news for the UK with the a50 clock ticking.

The main stumbling block is NI a with Barnier warning not to use the border as a way to test EU resolve. Brexit always about the NI border. The UK have never provided a solution to the EU that does not produce a hard border. The idea being pushed by the UK will create one despite claiming it won't. The reality is the only viable solutions are either staying in the single market and customs union or NI being granted special status and being different to the rest of the country. The former is opposed by the government, the later opposed by the DUP.

The DUP are getting a taste of their own medicine. They have been warned that Assembly Members might have pay frozen and if they don't reform Stormont they won't get their Billion Pound Booty. Plus Ian Paisley Jr just found a new scandal for the party.

May is trying to channel Venezuela by getting rid of democracy when it suits. The Great Repel Bill (aka as the Withdrawal Bill) faces it's challenge. The much feared Henry VIII in clause 9 are not only facing criticism from Remainers but also from the secretive crackpots of Tory Bastard Club (aka ERG). The TBC want hard cliff edge Brexit. May seems to support given her goodwill burning interference at the Home Office which seeks to discriminate against all foreigners and make them sign a register. The visa system and how it will attract much needed staff for the NHS makes the mind boggle.

The Repel Bill also could end the possibility of transition due to clause 6 which requires us to leave the ECJ. Given the May's ambition to make EU citizens display their stars in job applications this is totally unable to the EU. If it passes the chances of transition drop dramatically. Bye bye Smooth and Orderly.

Then there is the May-Bot paradox: the one were she gives a friendly speech to the EU and a nasty on to the Swivel Eyed Loon gathering. As if neither will be reported to the other audience.

On top of this May is attempting the Parliament Rigging Act as she has a 'majority Government'. Yep I know, this is the general election version of 'will of the people'. The Rigging Act seeks to stack parliamentary committees with Tory majorities so they can stop any bill they don't like getting anywhere need the main chamber this limiting the power of opposition to irrelevant. Sadly I think this one will get through due to maths of the HoC atm.

We shouldn't forget the role of the HoL though and the lack of a majority government (why do you think May is saying majority government? It's down to the Sewell convention and trying to make the case it applies when the argument is it doesn't for a minority government).

The other development is the rumours that Boris is for the boot. And Rees-Mogg might get a promotion.

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MsHooliesCardigan · 15/09/2017 09:17

Idontlook I have a number of friends in your position including some very experienced doctors and nurses. Best of luck to you. I feel genuinely ashamed to be British right now.
I don't have the most robust mental health and this is really beginning to take a toll on me. Part of me thinks I should just ignore anything to do with Brexit for a while but I find it really hard.
There is a particular poster who keeps saying 'chin chin' while our country and our children's future goes down the toilet who makes me feel genuinely murderous.
I am standing outside my office debating whether I am fit to be at work or whether I just want to go home and cry.
Sorry for the merail but I am really struggling with this right now.

mrsquagmire · 15/09/2017 09:31

Sorry, Mrs Hoolie, it’s all crap, isn’t? Thanks again everyone for all this intelligent comment and discussion.

Laura Kuenssberg thinks May is going to try and split the EU with a fee for access offer - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41274743

May’s family background was being discussed - it’s been researched at theswamp.media/theresa-may-s-father and newspaper articles on the BNA back up parts of it. Quite a complex picture and might explain a lot.

On a tangent, I found this comment by a Beleaver to the Goodbye Song on Youtube -"I'm going to sing this song tomorrow as I sing goodbye to the EU. No more dominion from Brussels beurocrats. no more sucking up to Fuerther Junkers in the fatherland.Goodbye to silly regulations and all that . Will make a heart proud to serve the country by voting out."

Response: “This is a German Operetta.”

Beleaver: ”The EU yes a German opera we no longer are part of the chorus or singing all its tunes . We will make merry music once more not march to the sound of Merkel or Junkers”.

Do you laugh or cry?

Peregrina · 15/09/2017 09:34

The thing is with health care professionals we have never bothered to train enough - before EU citizens came, we just imported them from Commonwealth countries i.e. African and Asian, (not the White Commonwealth who we now want to cosy up to again).

Just from a reading of MN you can see that we couldprobably fill nursing, midwifery and medicals schools twice over with well qualified candidates. So what do we do - scrap nursing and midwifery bursaries making it difficult for people to train, and announce a handful of more medical school places.

Peregrina · 15/09/2017 09:41

About May's forthcoming Florence speech:
Here, the speech is so sensitive no one will be drawn on the record. But one former diplomat, familiar with the talks, told me there is a chance for the UK to throw the EU "into disarray" - put forward that "sensible offer" and destroy the unity the 27 other countries have worked so hard to preserve.

May I predict that if May tries to split the EU the answer will be 'get stuffed'. Which will play well in the tabloids and Torygraph, and with some MN Leave contributors. None of which will actually help any of us.

BiglyBadgers · 15/09/2017 09:57

I am fully expecting May's big speech to be a massive damp squib and be nothing but a plethora of platitudes and pointlessness. This is the lot who put out a terribly important, embargoed press release telling us they were going to release some reports everyone was already expecting Hmm

BiglyBadgers · 15/09/2017 10:01

I'm sorry you are finding things hard at the moment hoolies. I am having to heavily regulate my news intake right now as I just can't deal with the overwhelming amount of crap, while DH is still in hospital. These threads are great because I can just come on and catch up with things when I am feeling capable of dealing with it.

I haven't been able to face the trump threads at all as it is like looking into a terrible vision of our near future.

lalalonglegs · 15/09/2017 10:14

I'm fully expecting it to make things even worse than they are currently Sad. Our reputation will sink to a new low, her "offer" - and I am sure in her own mind, TM thinks she is being terribly generous to the dear little natives - will be met with eye rolls and barely suppressed laughter.

lalalonglegs · 15/09/2017 10:16

I'm sorry that your husband is still in hospital, Bigly. I hope he's on the mend, albeit slowly Flowers.

Peregrina · 15/09/2017 10:18

A very interesting read about the Revd. Brasier. We are constantly told on MN threads that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide.

DrivenToDespair · 15/09/2017 10:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pointythings · 15/09/2017 10:25

The government bang on about wanting the brightest and best... And those are the people leaving. Masters of the own goal, those Brexiteers.

MsHooliesCardigan · 15/09/2017 10:30

Bigly How is your DH doing?

LurkingHusband · 15/09/2017 10:31

post-Brexit Britain will simply outlaw, or refuse to recognise dual citizenship with EU countries.

If this happens, what about the GFA acknowledgement of Irish citizenship in NI?

Again: what about it ? A few posts after you asked that question, someone posted a story about the Home Office knowingly undertaking an illegal deportation.

As is already clear from where we already are, it's clear that the law is just a mere irritation to be slowly removed, as each obstacle is encountered.

After all: whose gonna stop them ?

TheElementsSong · 15/09/2017 10:37

The government bang on about wanting the brightest and best

Let us be clear, the government, and that section of the electorate that they are so keen to satisfy, only "want the brightest and the best" from a functional point of view. Foreign people, however qualified, hardworking, or bright, are seen as nothing more than pieces of machinery. Like particularly well-programmed androids whose only purpose for existing is to service the requirements of real people (that's British people, ok?)

Thus the complete lack of understanding that people with feelings might not wish to endure uncertainty,HO harassment, deportation letters, "f**k off where you came from" attacks, not to mention loathing and resentment for attempting to build real family lives (see the fuss over school places, access to healthcare, housing, public transport etc etc). Don't these pieces of machinery realise what a privilege it is to service real, noble British people?

Peregrina · 15/09/2017 10:37

If this happens, what about the GFA acknowledgement of Irish citizenship in NI?

I could see this leading to the re-unification of Ireland. The demographic is slowly shifting away from the Protestants. At the moment, neither RoI or NI want it, but I could see that changing.

MsHooliesCardigan · 15/09/2017 10:38

It's like the election never happened. For the first time in ages, I felt a hint of optimism but TM is acting like she got a 150 seat majority. All that money and Brexit negotiating time wasted and it's like it's just been erased from history.
I am so fucking angry today.

Badders08 · 15/09/2017 10:40

Oh this all just makes me so very sad
Bigly - hope dh is on the mend Flowers
Irish passport applications arrived today.
Difficult convo with dh predicted when he back from his trip
Im serious about wanting to leave
He doesn't
Sad

Peregrina · 15/09/2017 10:45

I wish I had the chance to apply for an Irish passport, I would do it like a shot.

MsHooliesCardigan · 15/09/2017 10:51

DH and the DC have Irish passports thank God. I think I can forgive DH pretty much anything for having the foresight to do that.
It will be quite weird if we all go on holiday together and I'm in a different queue Sad

DrivenToDespair · 15/09/2017 10:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Badders08 · 15/09/2017 10:55

Yep
Dh too
Which is odd as he has to travel so much for his job....

BiglyBadgers · 15/09/2017 11:01

Dh is stable and out the danger zone, but the drain they put in to get the gunk out his chest isn't working as well as hoped. There is talk of more drains or surgery to clear him out, but we are hoping to avoid that if possible. Once the fluid is sorted the anti-biotics should do the job and get him back up and about. It is all rather tiring though.

prettybird · 15/09/2017 11:06

A wee bit to lighten the mood: BBC Breakfast did a piece on "old" words that had dropped out of the dictionary but that might making a come back.

One was "betrump" which genuinely historically means "to deceive/cheat" Grin

TheElementsSong · 15/09/2017 11:13

Flowers to your DH, Bigly!

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2017 11:13

There are all types of Christian. Some are 'more Christian' than others.

Throughout history there have been types who will damn you to hell for all eternity with their fire and brimstone. Its part of the reason that many have lost faith because of the hypocrisy this promotes.

I very much take the 'well I'm a Christian line with a pinch of salt'. Its is too often used as a justification for being an arsehole.

I'm much more into people who call themselves humanitarians as a way to describe themselves as this covers all faiths (or no faiths) and actually tends to show a better measure of compassion and understanding for others as a duty and responsibility. Or put simply 'thinking of others' and 'empathy'.

This 'pseudo morality' should be called out for what it is. A mask for being a nasty peace of work which seeks to abuse, control or otherwise treat other people with contempt or beneath them.

Religion has a got a bad image in this country, particularly amongst the young. There is a reason for this. Its to do with education and its to do with a dislike for authoritarianism which exploits religion and provides a structure for religion. Religion in Europe has suffered particularly for this uncompromising rigidity.

There is plenty to admire with faith. People need faith. It provides support and comfort, particularly at times of need. Without it people feel more isolated and struggle more to cope. It provides a source of mental health support.

For that reason I really do believe that people would like more faith in their lives. Its the politics of faith and the structure of the institutions of faith that many dislike and are the problem, just as they dislike actual politics. In other words the establishment that does not recognise their problems and needs, offers them no stake in their lives and instead judges and condemns and blames them for things rather than listening to them and helping them get back on track. (Also note 'religions' or should I say cults, who do recognise this and use it against people, as an exploit for power rather than actually getting people back on track.)

As a rule politics and religion are not a good mix because its too often about this unquestioning 'I believe' imposed from above against continued reasoned argument and debate within a democracy which involves all.

At its very heart of the hard line religion v thinking democracy is the principle that the people who don't question and don't like to be questioned and challenged, when they have the means and ability to do so, are the people for whom the rules work for best. In other words 'the establishment'.

Rees-Mogg being the perfect example.

Its easier to silence others by hiding behind religion to maintain status than to have a proper debate on morality and social responsibility within society as a whole. Where religion becomes the instrument of the political establishment, this is where it dies and fails. It no longer is about any God.

Religion should promote and encourage thinking, as this is good for society as a whole. Thinking and questioning IS the very essence of empathy. Religion does do this in many quarters. Ages of enlightenment have occurred in conjunction with religion, for the advancement and benefit of society. Afterall, what is religion without empathy? The two are not totally incompatible though the marriage is a difficult one. In doing so it needs to recognise its need to be inclusive and have certain freedoms of the very thought it encourages which can be tricky.

My point is that Mogg is not a religious man. He uses religion as an instrument of his privilege to maintain his privilege by promoting the idea that we should not think or question his 'moral authority' which he only has through position and not through invoking God as his defence. It is purely a political action and not a pious one. He wants to promote an image of piety. This is nothing more than a smoke screen for political gain. You need to do more than simply invoke your religion to have any real sense of moral authority within a democracy.

Easy to see why he dislike democracy and accountability.

In short: Rees-Mogg is nothing but a bigoted zealot not at all pious and worthy of the respect he seems to think he is owed or wants to demand. He can whine all he likes to the contrary but it doesn't change the fact, he's an ungodly nasty piece of work.

That's a philosophical as I'm going to get.

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