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Brexit

Westminstenders: The beginning of the dictatorship and the end of Boris?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2017 10:55

Brexit is being fought in the UK media and parliament on the premise that the EU is being difficult and obstructive.

The fallacy can not be understated.

What the UK fails to understand is the right of the EU to put their own interests before the UKs. It doesn't under that our demands cannot be met even if the EU wanted to for practical and legal reasons - not political ones because our understanding of the situation and law is so poor.

The net result is the slippage of the next phase of Brexit talks being pushed to Christmas by the EU due to lack of progress by the UK. Barnier is open to more regular and intense talks but this is bad news for the UK with the a50 clock ticking.

The main stumbling block is NI a with Barnier warning not to use the border as a way to test EU resolve. Brexit always about the NI border. The UK have never provided a solution to the EU that does not produce a hard border. The idea being pushed by the UK will create one despite claiming it won't. The reality is the only viable solutions are either staying in the single market and customs union or NI being granted special status and being different to the rest of the country. The former is opposed by the government, the later opposed by the DUP.

The DUP are getting a taste of their own medicine. They have been warned that Assembly Members might have pay frozen and if they don't reform Stormont they won't get their Billion Pound Booty. Plus Ian Paisley Jr just found a new scandal for the party.

May is trying to channel Venezuela by getting rid of democracy when it suits. The Great Repel Bill (aka as the Withdrawal Bill) faces it's challenge. The much feared Henry VIII in clause 9 are not only facing criticism from Remainers but also from the secretive crackpots of Tory Bastard Club (aka ERG). The TBC want hard cliff edge Brexit. May seems to support given her goodwill burning interference at the Home Office which seeks to discriminate against all foreigners and make them sign a register. The visa system and how it will attract much needed staff for the NHS makes the mind boggle.

The Repel Bill also could end the possibility of transition due to clause 6 which requires us to leave the ECJ. Given the May's ambition to make EU citizens display their stars in job applications this is totally unable to the EU. If it passes the chances of transition drop dramatically. Bye bye Smooth and Orderly.

Then there is the May-Bot paradox: the one were she gives a friendly speech to the EU and a nasty on to the Swivel Eyed Loon gathering. As if neither will be reported to the other audience.

On top of this May is attempting the Parliament Rigging Act as she has a 'majority Government'. Yep I know, this is the general election version of 'will of the people'. The Rigging Act seeks to stack parliamentary committees with Tory majorities so they can stop any bill they don't like getting anywhere need the main chamber this limiting the power of opposition to irrelevant. Sadly I think this one will get through due to maths of the HoC atm.

We shouldn't forget the role of the HoL though and the lack of a majority government (why do you think May is saying majority government? It's down to the Sewell convention and trying to make the case it applies when the argument is it doesn't for a minority government).

The other development is the rumours that Boris is for the boot. And Rees-Mogg might get a promotion.

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RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:01

My feeling is that they are testing this tactic on the police, who can't strike

Can't strike. They can. Just illegally.

In such a scenario, what happens?

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RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:08

(martial law. May would love this)

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woman11017 · 12/09/2017 21:08

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_police_strikes_in_1918_and_1919
this^

Wasn't nice, ( like all strikes, no one wants to wish being involved in one on their worst enemy) but they got better pay and conditions.

Army numbers are low, aren't they, for back up.

BiglyBadgers · 12/09/2017 21:12

Can't strike. They can. Just illegally.

Well yes there is that. The thing is the army is pretty underpaid and underfunded too, so I don't think May will be getting all that much love from there if she was going to go for martial law. I imagine we would end up with private security firms like G4S taking over. Brutal and incompetent in equal measure. Hmm

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:24

Leave alliance hadn't finished it's thread. It continues:

  1. Government clearly misses the point that any deal must be substantially more than just trade.
  2. The EU is not about to unpick the entire EEA agreement for the sole benefit of the UK. What is May smoking?
10. EEA agreement is configurable for the UK but anything beyond that is howling mad. 11. More to the point, the EU could not be any clearer that no talks on trade etc will happen until divorce terms agreed. 12. This smells like an attempt to circumvent the entire process. A refusal to engage. It will not succeed.

(Think they have finished the thread now.)

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missmoon · 12/09/2017 21:28

Chris Bryant was wonderful yesterday, thanks for posting the speech.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:29

May has been accused of wanting to privatise the police for ages.

If the scenario arose where she tried that, I think she might end up close to sparking civil war. I don't think the public would accept. Certain groups would but many, many wouldn't.

We are gradually getting darker and darker when we start to think about possible outcomes from things that are starting to look like real possibilities. These are worse case end of things, but right now given the current government I'm not sure we can rule it out.

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Peregrina · 12/09/2017 21:30

In those circs, not alarmist to say we might need food and fuel rationing

I can easily see this happening. It will be difficult for Leavers to explain that one away - precious few people would have voted for that.

BiglyBadgers · 12/09/2017 21:33

May really does not have a great track record when it comes to judging how the people will react. She has a habit of assuming she is right and they everyone else will obviously agree with her. I think this is a tendency that will lead to ever more disturbing actions from her, but also one that will prove her downfall when she pushes too far.

Figmentofmyimagination · 12/09/2017 21:37

Any union that strikes illegally will end up paying the government's legal costs for the inevitable injunction, plus compensation for any losses suffered by any customer, supplier or employer that link to the illegal strike, with seizure of union assets to cover any of these and fines/prison for contempt of court for union and striking individuals if the strike continues after the injunction has been granted. Look at what happened to the NUM, whose assets were sequestrated in the 80s. And if you strike illegally and are sacked, you are not allowed to take your claim to an employment tribunal. The tribunal is not even allowed to hear your case.

woman11017 · 12/09/2017 21:42

@britainelects

On the way in which the government is handling the Brexit negotiations:
Approve: 40%
Disapprove: 60%

Bit like the trump ratings when you can't believe any sentient being could approve.
40% approve Shock

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 21:47

It will be difficult for Leavers to explain that one away

I disagree. It's those remoaners ...

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:49

That only works if the government maintain control of the situation.

Point being there is no guarantee of that. Not with all the different pieces in the positions they currently lie.

May pushes too far, a dynamic of the people versus the elite establishment emerges. Whose agenda might that also suit?

The fact it does should trouble you. May is incompetent and too blinkered to see it coming. Others May do though, and see opportunity in engineering things to go in that direction.

Doom-mongering and worst case scenario, but in the context of other factors - most notably a no deal exit - far closer to the realms of possibly than you want it.

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QuentinSummers · 12/09/2017 21:49

The police won't strike. They just won't. It would be a cold day in he'll for that to happen - because how can they enforce the law while taking unlawful action? (This would be a police wide walkout which is very different to a couple of officers breaking rules before people start going on about speeding, parking etc)
The pay rise is bullshit. There is no extra budget so pay rise for some means others lose their jobs. The Tories are bastards.

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 21:52

how can they enforce the law while taking unlawful action?

There are many documented cases where the police have unlawfully/illegally obtained evidence which a court has accepted.

I think they'd find a way ....

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 21:55

Why am I reading about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock HmmHmm

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 21:56

Features of post-industrial society[edit]

A generic, disposable lighter.
Many goods have become disposable as the cost of manual repair or cleaning has become greater than the cost of making new goods due to mass production. Examples of disposable goods include ballpoint pens, lighters, plastic bottles, and paper towels.
The design of goods becomes outdated quickly. (And so, for example, a second generation of computers appears before the end of the expected period of usability of the first generation). It is possible to rent almost everything (from a ladder to a wedding dress), thus eliminating the need for ownership.
Whole branches of industry die off and new branches of industry arise. This affects unskilled workers who are compelled to change their residence to find new jobs. The constant change in the market also poses a problem for advertisers who must deal with moving targets.
People of post-industrial society change their profession and their workplace often. People have to change professions because professions quickly become outdated. People of post-industrial society thus have many careers in a lifetime. The knowledge of an engineer becomes outdated in ten years. People look more and more for temporary jobs.
To follow transient jobs, people have become nomads. For example, immigrants from Algeria, Turkey and other countries go to Europe to find work. Transient people are forced to change residence, phone number, school, friends, car license, and contact with family often. As a result, relationships tend to be superficial with a large number of people, instead of being intimate or close relationships that are more stable. Evidence for this is tourist travel and holiday romances.
The driver's license, received at age 16, has become the teenager's admission to the world of adults, because it symbolizes the ability to move independently.

QuentinSummers · 12/09/2017 21:58

If a court has accepted evidence then it's lawful.
Anyway let's not get into police bashing. I will water down what I said to I will be very surprised if the police strike. And I don't think we should expect them to.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 21:58

Nick shortleg @ nickShortleg
How strong is the intel? Seems odd given that that issue is sitting in amendments to the Bill. Pre-empting those votes seems unlikely?

The Leave Alliance @ LeaveHQ
We know for a fact the idea has been raised and is being talked about at the height levels. There are other clues.

Nick shortleg @ nickShortleg
It also completely contradicts what Hammond has just said.

OK. I don't doubt it's being discussed, along with other nuts ideas. But, as I say, announcing this would pre-empt the amendment votes.

Oi Nick, precisely! You think Hammond saying completely the opposite and the news that this is what May is going to put in her speech leaking and those proposed amendments is pure coincidence?

Someone's trying to head off the insanity.

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HesterThrale · 12/09/2017 22:02

Ironic. Article 50 was a mechanism designed for dictators who might want to storm out of the EU. Lord Kerr said:
“It seemed to me very likely that a dictatorial regime would then, in high dudgeon, want to storm out”.

So ironic that in the UK case, triggering A50 seems to be creating a 'dictatorship'.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/article-50-design-dictators-not-uk-eu-european-lisbon-treaty-author-lord-kerr-a7655891.html%3famp

woman11017 · 12/09/2017 22:04

@JohnRentoul

Catch-up: Ruth Davidson says she would campaign to remain in the EU if another referendum were to be held

SwedishEdith · 12/09/2017 22:07

Oliver Norgrove‏ @OliverNorgrove 1h1 hour ago

1/ So the Treasury is supposedly planning for a no deal Brexit. As a Leaver, this is terrifying. The WTO option is, bluntly, suicide.

2/ Several things happen when we leave eschewing negotiations with the EU. Firstly, we rely on GATT/WTO rules for facilitating trade.

3/ This has a profound impact upon our tariff arrangements with the EU, which currently are non-existent.

4/ Upon leaving the EU and becoming a 'third country', the EU is LEGALLY OBLIGED to impose on us the same tariffs it does other WTO members.

5/ Note that when I say 'other WTO members' I refer to those with whom the EU does not have Free Trade Agreements.

6/ At the heart of the WTO framework is a principle called Most Favoured Nation (MFN). It means members can't discriminate.

7/ If they do onto one they must do uniformly. A tariff here for one country means a tariff here for every other country.

8/ There are certain exemptions to this rule, such as if a member is a CU or has FTAs with members, and slightly different rules apply.

9/ This is how the EU has been able to negotiate preferential tariff schedules over many years. It remains influential and powerful.

10/ So, the EU applies to the UK new tariff schedules, which are inferior to those provided by membership. Prices at home are spiked.

11/ If the U.K. decides to retaliate, then it would need to do so to all other WTO members, as per MFN equal treatment rules.

12/ This is why Patrick Minford says: 'let's go to unilateral free trade'. But this doesn't even begin to fix things.

13/ A good way to spot a fraud or an amateur in Brexit/trade debate is to look for those who talk about trade purely in terms of tariffs.

14/ Tariffs are an issue, but a small one. The real economic minefield that lies behind the WTO door is a web of non-tariff barriers.

15/ Tariffs have indeed come down globally, but this drainage has exposed the magnitude of NTB issues we are left to deal with.

16/ As an EU member the UK enjoys a harmonised system of regulation. The benefit of this is the removal of technical barriers to trade.

17/ Outside of the EU, conformity (or regulatory convergence) is not enough to smooth trade flow. We need to prove we conform to standards.

18/ This is where customs cooperation comes in (which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Customs Union).

19/ Where there exists large amounts of trade between two trading partners (like EU+China), MRAs or equivalents built into FTAs are useful.

20/ MRAs are Mutual Recognition Agreements. MRAs promote trade facilitation by helping to assess conformity to standards.

21/ By eschewing EU negotiations, we will have to rely on WTO mechanisms, such as the TBT and SPS Agreements. This will be arduous.

22/ Unlike the EEA, these provisions aren't effective. No country trades with the EU solely using such terms. There is a reason for this.

23/ There will be clashes at external borders, whereby UK/EU will not be able to assess whether standards have been complied with.

24/ This will cause chaos. We will see delays at shipping ports, lorry queues on motorways stretching miles, wasted/devalued cargo etc.

25/ This may sound minor, but take the perspective of an exporter, or even a consumer expecting a product, and you realise it isn't.

26/ NTBs are more important than tariffs because their externalities cause far more profound (and often unseen) economic problems.

27/ Goods will not reach their destinations. Some may make it but scraping their sell-by or use-by dates. In other words: pandemonium.

28/ This is just a brief picture I am painting. There is a lot I don't know. I am trying to learn in time to warn enough people against it.

29/ So when Nigel Farage speaks of the WTO option by comparing possible EU tariffs with our budgetary contributions, this is LAUGHABLE.

30/ The problem extends far beyond tariffs, which will themselves be painful. The WTO option would be self-harm on an unimaginable scale.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2017 22:07

red If Leave Alliance are right, then May is trying to abolish the EU in favour of a simple trade bloc - to avoid civil war in the Tory party Hmm
Does not compute that members would do her this little favour.

The EU has been a political project since its earliest beginnings as the coal & steel agreeement in the 1950s.

The aim being to bind Germany & France v closely together, so that the continent will never again be devastated by its 2 main powers going to war.
The wealthier countries - the net contributors - remain in favour of the political dimension

The ECJ is required for the incredible complexity of the arrangements required for trade in the Single Market.

Even the Eastern states - least keen on the political aspects - want the subsidies / regional development.

Contrary to the strange belief on the other thread that FOM will end in the EU, polls consistently show all member states value their FOM rights.
The concerns about MENA migrants - concerns shared with the USA, Oz etc - is a separate issue that will require international measures to tackle.

woman11017 · 12/09/2017 22:09

@britainelects
Public confidence in the Prime Minister to get the right Brexit deal for Britain is low (32%), down from a high of 47% in Feb.

HesterThrale · 12/09/2017 22:09

Eddie Izzard thinking of running for Parliament:

'He said: “The plan was always to run [for office] in 2020, though Theresa May has changed that with her failed power grab. So now it’s the first general election after 2020.” '

www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/11/eddie-izzard-could-give-up-comedy-to-become-first-transgender-mp/1/